Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

+1 Lass, I agree.

You can easily show something up for being sexist or not by substituting male for female. So, how many female pimps are there making money off male prostitutes? How many male escorts are killed by women? How many men in the UK are stripping to fund their education?

Qwerty in a sexual situation involving a man and a woman, which person do you think is more vulnerable?

the OP was can men be feminists? Instead I'm getting to read a load of icky posts about why prostitution and porn are A-OK by the male posters on here. Irrelevant, goady and boring

I agree with this, with the caveat of 'some' male posters

I also agree with the last post lass

And i am getting a bit fucked off with the prostitution is like...working in the amazon warehouse...giving a massage....like my job....

Cant say anymore otherwise it gets into full on sweary mode

The woman generally. As a rule the man predates on the woman, although there are predatory women who objectify and use men (though even then the man is generally not as physically vulnerable ). Why?

Do you think the fact that women are vulnerable in sexual situations has any bearing on the ethics of prostitution as a job?

I suppose men could be psychologically or emotionally vulnerable however.

Even if they're the ones buying the sex?

Beachcomber, the reason I questioned the analogy was because your DH was giving the massage, not receiving it. Your broader points I understand.

qwerty, yes, almost 70% of those living in poverty are women and 65% of people who are illiterate are women, according to the International Labour Organisation. The United Nations give similar figures, ditto Oxfam.

In Britain, women are around 15% more likely to live in households classed as poor, but this masks the fact that women may also have less or no income in couple households, and a lower or non-existent pension due to caring responsibilities, structural inequalities in the labour force, or may be subject to financial abuse.

That is not to say men do not live in poverty, but that women are more vulnerable being the majority of single parents and also more likely to be in poverty in old age in addition to the gender-based disparities already mentioned.

I am actually surprised that you question this.

Another person who agrees with Lass about prostitution not being just another job. It's a profoundly stupid suggestion. Great post.

I didn't bring up the subject of prostitution or porn, I responded to another post mentioning it - that's not goading IMO

bearfishdoodle

How many female pimps are making money off prostitution?

I have no idea. Heidi Fleiss is the most famous. They certainly exist.

Sparrowhawk

No, you are not wrong to imagine most politicians are men (at least those with considerable power). I would like to see political institutions (like the house of commons) reformed so that they do not primarily result in only women (like May & Thatcher) who choose not to have children or (like H Clinton) who do not pursue high office until their children are adults from rising to the top.

I don't agree with all women shortlists as a matter or policy rather than coincidence through merit, nor would I vote for a candidate because she was a woman rather than because I felt she was the best candidate.

But, changes to the way the mechanics of politics work so that they do not require commitment to them at the exclusion of other life priorities is overdue IMO.

It does have a bearing on the vulnerability of the prostitute, but not on the moral character of the punter. Whether a man or a woman, if you are buying a person's body you are behaving in an equally immoral way.

Quick poll, have any feminists changed their minds on the OP due to the persuasive arguments of our male posters?

Ummmm...
another
Thatcher had children. Twins in fact.

I was under the impression you didn't have much problem with prostitution qwerty.

Oh, and lass yet another excellent post!

No I'm against prostitution.

zsazsagaboredom

Yes you are quite right. Scratch out Thatcher... still applies to May

Plus Theresa May did not choose not to have children, she said in an interview with the Times that she was not able to.

If you accept that the vast majority of people in power are male ramdom, why is it that you don't accept that we live in a male supremacist society?

On the issue of consent the position being put to you is that if the only reason person A is having sex with person B is because person B is paying then that is not true consent.

I agree with all of this. But i'd like to ask what it is about sex that makes it different to any other act we only do because we're paid.

I realise what most of the answer would be so let me preface this hypothetical question that it requires it could be sanitised to the extent that another person was present in the room, the punter required an STI check, it was filmed so there would be no question of a prosecution should anything "bad" happen. Even if all these things were in place I still wouldn't like it and I cannot justify this to myself other than to say it just seems wrong to me....does that make sense ? Is the idea of selling sex OK if we didn't live in the world we do ? To me it isn't, but I can't explain why.

Adoption is still a parenting choice CocoaX ?

I personally think the way the commons works with debates into the early hours, no job sharing, no delegated votes and so on is not really conducive to people with families who want to be properly involved parents, whether male or female. More men than women seem happier to be hands off parents, but the majority of people have children at some point, so I believe that the working practices of institutions like the commons actively retain some structural bias towards men.

Oh for goodness sake Random, it is not that simple. My DSis lost her baby at birth and subsequently struggled with infertility. I cannot even begin to imagine the emotions involved, and we are close, never mind go - oh, why not adopt? So to suggest that of a stranger as an alternative to infertility seems mind-blowingly simplistic.
Equally I know a couple who were not able to have children and for whom adoption did not work out.
I am not going to equate not adopting a child with choosing not to have children. It is not that simple in RL.

It's not really different girl. In any situation where one person inserts something into another person's body (eg a medical context) we acknowledge that that is very personal, invasive and requires consent unless it's an emergency situation. A situation in which a relatively more powerful person wants to insert things into the body of a relatively less powerful person for their own pleasure is abhorrent.

Quick poll, have any feminists changed their minds on the OP due to the persuasive arguments of our male posters?

I think on the basis of this thread, probably yes some can but by their actions, not self-proclamation and there is probably little need to proclaim it. I mentioned way back Drs. Gunn and Tiller for example.

makeourfuture says he is, but his interesting questions about the relationship between Feminism and Socialism have got buried. I don't recall anything he said as being objectionable and it would have been interesting to hear more from him.

So my mind has been changed to the extent that , yes men can work for the interests and advancement of women and to make women's lives better but there is no particular need for them to insist they are called feminists.

Sparrowhawk

We did used to - now that gender equality is enshrined in law, we don't IMO.

The analogy I'd use is one of Apartheid South Africa.

Until Apartheid ended, South Africa was a white supremacist society. When Apartheid ended and a majority black democratic government took over, it ceased to be a white supremacist society.

It was, however, a society where whites were more likely to be rich, more likely to be powerful, less likely to be victims of crime etc... and that will take generations to play out.

When women are getting better educational outcomes than men, better health and longevity outcomes than men and so on, we don't live in a male supremacist society, just one that still has some inequalities based on gender.