Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

As for a power dynamic - that's complicated. In some respects the prostitute has the power as they name the price

Indeed, it is an appalling thing that men die if they can't wank in a woman and completely unfair that men are compelled by their mortality to get sex by any means. How cruel of women that they actually can choose the tariff to overlook their lack of consent to sex with an individual. That's really power, life and actual, literal death or impoverishment at the hands of women.

My attitude to prostitution has nothing

I have never had sex with a woman I didn't know. I've been in a monogamous relationship for 10 years and never been elsewhere for sex.

However, given that other people of both genders have open relationships, polyamorous relationships, stranger sex, one night stands, go to sex parties etc... I accept that there are many people who do not have the same attitude to sex as me. Similarly, some people sell it, and others buy it. I am entirely happy for them all to carry on exercising their choice to do so, as long as it is a free choice.

My attitude has nothing to do with male sexual entitlement, it is entirely the result of my belief that what consenting adults do behind closed doors is their business, not mine, or the state, or yours.

I have no desire to take speed or steroids either, but I still think they should be decriminalised.

However, given that other people of both genders have open relationships, polyamorous relationships, stranger sex, one night stands, go to sex parties etc

Normally they do these things because they want to.

Sorry I understand, and I agree.

some people sell it, and others buy it.

Interesting choice of words.

We all know that it is overwhelmingly male people who buy sex and overwhelmingly female people who provide sexual servicing of those male people.

And we also know that this takes place within male supremacist society.

Your sentence invisibleizes these important facts.

It is odd that men don't often choose the easy and gratifying lifestyle of the prostitute, isn't it? I expect we'll never really understand why.

as long as it is a free choice

How can you determine that?

Exactly MrsDusty.

... and the only person I have ever had an in depth discussion with who had sex for money did it because she wanted to. She had a job. She had a home. She had no overriding economic imperative to do it.

And that in my view, should be entirely her choice and her business.

I suspect that she'd have RATHER won the lottery, but then, I'd rather win the lottery than work 55 hours a week.

Beachcomber... I don't accept that we live in a male supremacist society either.

You might think you do, but many women & men disagree

Beachcomber your analogy does not quite work. But I will substitute adults for the example to avoid it becoming inappropriate.

The point about the massage is it is a physical act. The comparison would be between a woman giving a man a massage (not being massaged) as a service or intimate act; and a woman having sex as a service or intimate act. So, woman keeps clothes on, uses hands on non-genital parts, and gives massage with her hands. It is still a service, but presumably it is better equated to physiotherapy that prostitution.

I don't think the example works with a DD massaging her dad's feet because the power balance is switched not only in gender but generational terms, which is more problematic.

Mrs Dusty very often people do those things due to social pressure, or because everyone else is doing them, or a million other reasons than they actually want to. Our supposedly empowering sexual culture is just a new orthodoxy.

charlie

How do you ever determine free choice?

Unless you win or inherit millions, or live on benefits, we all choose to do things for money that we would otherwise not freely do.

How many people would continue their exact same current job if they had millions in the bank?

We live in a society where power, wealth and privilege is overwhelmingly in male hands, though, and the majority of people living in poverty are women.

Are the majority of people living in poverty women CocoaX?

I purposely used the example of my DH and my DD.

a) because it is so very obvious in this context that massaging and sexual services are very very different.

b) because the majority of prostituted women enter prostitution as minors (that is as children).

c) a history of CSA is very common in prostituted women - common enough that it cannot be dismissed as coincidence.

random despite your anecdotal evidence I think you are probably aware that the vast majority of prostituted women are not exercising free choice. Consumers do not care whether they are or not. You can call it consenting adults doing whatever they choose in private if it makes you feel better. Anyway, I'm heartily sick and tired of your goady fuckery and derailment and I'm not going to engage with you any more.

And arf at random male who disagrees that society is male supremacist.

You know what porn is? It's hate speech. You know why it is tolerated, indeed allowed to proliferate? Because our current social order is a male supremacy.

You know what porn is? It's hate speech. You know why it is tolerated, indeed allowed to proliferate? Because our current social order is a male supremacy
(because we don't have a 'like' button)

True beach but lib fems are some of the biggest champions of the porn industry. And women watch it too- in increasing numbers. Basically the battle against porn is lost.

I'm also h8ding the thread. In case you forgot, the OP was can men be feminists? Instead I'm getting to read a load of icky posts about why prostitution and porn are A-OK by the male posters on here. Irrelevant, goady and boring. Enjoy the last few pages

I'm a chap and don't think either are A-OK, for what that's worth.

How many people would continue their exact same current job if they had millions in the bank?

I suspect that she'd have RATHER won the lottery, but then, I'd rather win the lottery than work 55 hours a week

Okay, to avoid you having to repeat yourself I'm going to say, and pretty certain Bertrand, Charlie, FloraFox and Beachcomber agree , being a prostitute is not a job like any other job. Not ever.

On the issue of consent the position being put to you is that if the only reason person A is having sex with person B is because person B is paying then that is not true consent.

No one , I hope, could for one minute countenance the idea that a trafficked 15 year old held in a brothel is consenting because she was handed €10.

You are suggesting that the happy hookers/Belle de Jours are freely consenting.(There is a secondary issue about the happy hooker scenario which I'll come to)

Now, instead of a 15 year old held in a brothel the girl is 16 and homeless- is she consenting? Or 20 but her rent is due and her electricity is about to be cut off? Is she consenting?

Getting back to the Belle de Jours. I don't care whether they are freely consenting or whether they think they are freely consenting. They are part of, I would even say colluding with, normalising the idea it is acceptable to hire another body to masturbate into. And I think that is debasing and degrading and incompatible with human dignity.

And of course if you think consent can be bought you have the problem of the blurred lines of where does consent start and stop.

Oh and for the record I don't care, as long as there is no cheating , it is in private, all participants are over 16 and consenting without being paid, who someone else has sex with. One night stands, threesomes, swingers, whatever, I don't care.

Perfectly articulated Lass

I agree Lass except there is just as much potential for abuse in the casual sex scenario. Casual sex is a transaction that almost always involves an imbalance of power. Sometimes both party's use each other to exactly the same degree, but more often than not one person is being used that bit more. Subtract love from sex and you have commodification.

Random, are women just imagining that the vast majority of people in power, in politics, business, the media, are men?