Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

In which country is there a majority female government?

Girl and sparrowhawk: it is not so much a question of the particulars of the act as the intent or character of the actor. If person A sees person B as an object to be used for their own gratification, then person A is defective, morally speaking.

Quick poll, have any feminists changed their minds on the OP due to the persuasive arguments of our male posters

Not only this topic specifically, but I'm totally grossed out now.

Rwanda & Bolivia have majority female parliaments. Iceland is the closest in the western world with 48%

I would like to see political institutions (like the house of commons) reformed so that they do not primarily result in only women (like May & Thatcher) who choose not to have children or (like H Clinton) who do not pursue high office until their children are adults from rising to the top.

Regardless of the specifics being incorrect, I would like to see a time where these points are raised just as much about men and their wishes to be parents and fitting it in with their careers. It certainly can be done if you're at the top and can have a lot of power over your schedule - but presumably Nick Clegg had lots of support to call on on the days where he couldn't avoid being in the House. Luxuries people lower down the hierarchy wouldn't have. I don't know if any current parliamentary parents are able to be as flexible with work and home, nor if they want to. I would agree the reaction would have been different if Clegg had been the mother not the father.

You think every time a prostitute has sex with a client is rape? Yes I do.
The Happy Hooker is a myth.

Quick poll, have any feminists changed their minds on the OP due to the persuasive arguments of our male posters?

Well, I started out saying that men could be feminists, though it was unlikely and difficult. This thread has pushed me further over to the side of "no they can't, because the requirement to really critically self examine and challenge their own internal sense of entitlement and male socialistion is too much work and most men won't or can't do it". Notable exceptions to makeour and luiscarol for making thoughtful contributions which I wish we had heard much more of rather than this lengthy, dull, and depressing meander through why men simply must have access to women's bodies for masturbatory purposes.

Another, Rwanda is a great example of where equality before the law fails to deliver an egalitarian society for women. Yes, they are there in parliament, in huge numbers, and that's terrific - it was actually imposed rather than happening organically, after the genocide, which is a fascinating story in itself, but too long for this thread. Anyway, after this edict was put in place and women entered parliament in huge numbers, nothing else about their lives changed, and Rwandan men still absolutely expect their wives to deliver on every domestic task that they used to deliver. One Rwandan MP gave an incredibly moving testimony about how she was being forced to quit because she just couldn't handle getting up at 4am to make sure she'd laid her husband's clothes out for the day, got his breakfast, and done every scrap of domestic labour before she even started her day job. She was exhausted. She had no domestic back up, and was tired of being pilloried by her inlaws and by the media for being a crap wife because her husband felt neglected. Her experience was common.

It's a great example, but for the opposite reason than in the way you've used it.

Well said PoochSmooch. You do realise also random that the 53% female majority in Bolivia is due to the quotas you disapprove of? And despite the majority Bolivia is still considered by Amnesty International to need significant improvement in the area of women's rights?

Say the gender composition of all the world's parliament's were flipped, so that they were majority female (apart from in Bolivia and Rwanda of course) do you think men would be fine with that?

PoochSmooch, that's really interesting about Rwanda. Thank you for posting that.

I know some posters are sick of prostitution talk on this thread so apologies for bringing it up again. I wanted to link to a pdf of a speech given by Andrea Dworkin about prostitution and male supremacy / male dominance. I'm not surprised that prostitution came up on a thread about men being feminist. As Dworkin says, a supremacist society needs a bottom to its socio-political hierarchy, and in a male supremacy (current society), prostituted women are that bottom. Indeed one could answer the question "can men be feminists?" with ; "not while prostitution still exists".

To quote Dworkin "Prostitution comes from male dominance, not from female nature"

Here is the link. I hope the men on this thread will read it and listen to what is being said. If they care enough about feminism to post here I hope they will be interested enough to read what this brilliant feminist thinker has to say. And also that they will have the humility to listen to a woman who knew more and thought more about female oppression and male dominance than they ever will.

Am on my phone so will post this first and then follow up with the link.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.sextrade101.com/docs/articles/article1.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwii2bKGxa_RAhXE2xoKHQ-iAi4QFgh8MBw&usg=AFQjCNHwEvR23Xzu2bmbhWqr8cfk_8fVjg&sig2=gpS19JdUKwDzywuxy23nvw" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.fr/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.sextrade101.com/docs/articles/article1.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwii2bKGxa_RAhXE2xoKHQ-iAi4QFgh8MBw&usg=AFQjCNHwEvR23Xzu2bmbhWqr8cfk_8fVjg&sig2=gpS19JdUKwDzywuxy23nvw

I'll have a read of that link, thanks beachcomber.

I started reading about Rwanda after having listened to a story on the Invisibilia podcast - a breakdown of it is here. Really interesting stuff.

Yeah, Heidi Fleiss exists and is notable because she is a woman. Whereas male pimps are so common they are nameless and everywhere. Pointing out the rare exception to a rule won't convince me I'm afraid.

Thank you so much PoochSmooch for this it is incredibly interesting. Am reading your link and will be looking more into this.

I absolutely don't mean this in a divisive way - this supports what radical feminism says about the need for a total dismantling of patriarchy from the ground up and how the personal is political.

Beachcomber- thank you for that.

And to think someone downthread said that prostitute women hold the power because they name the price..........

Beachcomber thank you for sharing that speech.

I would really like to hear what some of the men on here make of that speech. For me it's one of those "fundamental truth" moments. How, after reading it, could anyone think differently?

I am still naive enough to be amazed when men don't say "Bloody hell, yes, now you've explained it to me it's obvious! I'm sorry, I'll stop doing/saying X straight away"

That was such a powerful piece of writing. Thank you for sharing it Beachcomber.

I know exactly what you mean there Bertrand I feel the same. For me it happens a lot, that feeling of 'how can you just not see that'? I'm waiting with interest........

I wasn't presenting any argument that Rwanda & Bolivia are examples of some sort of utopian equal societies, I was simply answering the question "which countries have a female majority government"? And that is the only 'reason' I cited them.

I have never stated that ANY society is gender equal. The view I stated was that once all of the legal barriers to gender equality have been removed, and legal barriers to discrimination have been raised, a society is no longer, in my view, male supremacist in nature.

Random- have you read Beachcomber's link?

Beachcomber

That speech. Bloody hell.

For all those attempting to make a distinction in prostitution, using the 'happy hooker', high class escort, good time girl, 'balance of power' argument:

For instance, in the United States the women are poor, the women are mostly incest victims, the women are homeless. In parts of Asia, they were sold into slavery at the age of six months because they were females. That is how they do it there. It does not have to be done the same way in every place to be the same thing.

This should not have to be said but it has to be said: prostitution comes from male dominance, not from female nature

The attempt to justify prostitution, however slightly or in the abstract shows a disconnect between the class of buyers and class of sellers.

Most women understand instantly the profound violation involved in unwanted sex. The choice is not their 'moral responsibility'.

If there isn't a self evident underlying contempt for women why are so many prostitutes killed?

So, random, if the gender proportions of the world's parliaments were flipped so they were majority female, would you be ok with that?

I think any man who defends prostitution or porn should be made to sit with his daughter/niece/sister/mother/aunt and explain to her, with images, why she should be a prostitute/porn star.

I think the trouble is Bert that there are individual prostitutes that will tell you that Dworkin's account of prostitution is not theirs and they are empowered and enjoy and etc.

The idea of "using anothers body for pleasure" isn't really the problem - it's the sex thing that is different. A masseur gives you a pleasurable experience by using their body, primarily their hands to rub and massage your body. You pay them for this otherwise they wouldn't do it. As soon as it becomes a "hand job" though - well, because that body part has been touched the transaction takes on an entirely different dimension - and this is where i struggle to get across why i don't like it. It just comes across in arguments as being prudish.

Having spent a little time reading various mens forums, the thing that depresses me the most is that the attitude there (and i should add that I have never met anyone in real life who would actually admit to being a MGOTW) is that prostitution is an inevitable result of the inescapable truth which is that men want sex more than women. This both gives women a power over men which enables them to lead apparently charmed and easy lives, and it creates a market for people who are willing to have sex for money. If men did not want sex with women then women do not hold any value for being human beings. So the real problem as far as I'm concerned is that men who support prostitution do so because it removes the only power that they think women have - and this is to "withhold" sex from men by not having it with me who (actually do) hate them and have no interest in them beyond sex. It's all very depressing.

The view I stated was that once all of the legal barriers to gender equality have been removed, and legal barriers to discrimination have been raised, a society is no longer, in my view, male supremacist in nature.

So a society is just a collection of laws without any context?