Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

i'm unaware of anyone saying "white people aren't really interested in ending racial discrimination, because it they would lose privilege", which is effectively what you are saying.

I know of black activists who say this.

Of course white people aren't interested in ending racial discrimination, if they were, it would have ended by now. The only thing standing in the way of racial equality is the people who hold the power, the vast vast majority of whom are white.

William Wilberforce did work to end the slave trade, but he could never claim to stand in solidarity with black people. He called them 'these poor creatures' and believed religion would save their souls. He certainly did not identify with them. While he did enormous good for black people, he still considered them inferior and was certainly never going to lower himself to their level. He was a wealthy man who had no idea what it was like to be bought and sold and treated like property.

Incidentally he also believed women were inferior.

I think that a man calling himself a feminist is a very unfeminist thing to do. It implies a level of solidarity that they can't possibly have. I like "feminist ally" personally.

Incidentally, I heard a very good analogy recently by an Australian
feminist-can't remember her name.
She said that when she had first come to London she had been warned about how difficult driving was-how aggressive and rude and scary. But when she got here she didn't have any difficulty at all- she drove all over the place no problem. Then she drove a friend's car and it was awful-everything she had been warned about. The friend pointed out that now she was driving a mini- previously she had been driving a gigantic Chelsea tractor and just hadn't noticed the issues. Men (as a class) go through the world driving Chelsea tractors- women (as a class) drive minis.

No, although they can be supportive allies, by sharing the viewpoints of women. Too often I see men giving their own view of issues affecting women rather than deferring to an actual woman though.

I agree with you to a large extent, Bertrand. I think mostly that's how it happens: a man calls himself a feminist because he has the image of himself as a good guy, someone who loves and respects women, and why wouldn't he support us all being equal?

Where it usually falls down is where that butts up against something the Would-Be Feminist Man holds dear, or isn't willing to give up, or hasn't done the thinking about (and in defence of the WBFM, a lot of women have this too) and his principles give in the face of a real life situation.

I'm reluctant to give examples, though I started to type them out, because I think the examples I give will be picked apart. But I'm thinking of examples like: not pulling weight domestically, enthusiasm about porn and prostitution, being blind to harassment, not being willing to challenge themselves on unthinking biases etc.

So mostly, yes, I think men who say they're feminists aren't, and I agree with feminists who say that men can't be feminists, because it's broadly true, and I get why they say it.

However, if we take a man like Robert Jensen, who has done the thinking, done the critical self reflection, tried his absolute best to challenge all the ways in which he interacts with women and feminism, then I personally am OK with him calling himself a feminist.

Or a unicorn , because I think he and men like him are rare.

Sorry, further thought. I spend very, very little time worrying about how, when and why men engage with feminism, and a great deal more time fretting about how when and why women engage with feminism and what we achieve. It's clear to me why men are apathetic about feminism, or antagonistic to me, it doesn't need much analysis or brain time.

Now why so many women are against it, I find much more intriguing and worthy of action.

Dammit, antagonistic towards it, not me*...although I get shot as a messenger quite often

Actuwlly, if men could be feminists we wouldn't need feminism. Because they would just say "oh shit, you were right. Sorry. We'll stop doing that stuff now at once"

^^ oh yes

I'm a man

Of course men can be feminists. Since feminists say they are working for the interests of both men and women why couldn't they be?

ChocolateFuzz- fantastic. What elements of your male privilege have you/will you give up?

Which women's interests in particular do you work for ChocolateFuzz?

I think men can be feminists, because there are many different schools of feminism. Perhaps they don't 'get' everything, but they believe in the basics of it.
For example, my husband believes that men and women should be treated equally, have equal opportunity, be paid equally. We also have a very equal relationship in that we share childcare and housework fairly. Having said that, he doesn't spend a great deal of his time thinking actively about feminist issues because they don't really affect him. Therefore he doesn't call himself a feminist. We've had some interesting discussions about it though.

Dam right, Bertrand

I never belived in the privilege argument, both sexes have advantages over eachother

Fucking hell I actually laughed out loud at Chocolate. You couldn't make this shit up.

What advantages do women have over men Chocolate?

Rather than making fun of me miffer, it would be helpful if you could provide a counter argument to prove me wrong

Luckily I don't give a toss what would be helpful to you. Rather than bang my head against a brick wall I would much rather enjoy the irony and/or comedy. Do carry on.

🍿

TheSparrowhawk

Well for example despite making up 42 percent of the work force in North America women only account for 8 percent of workplace fatalities and male students are twice as likely to be victims of violent crime

We could make this a competition but that wouldn't be helpful to anybody. Men and women need to work together to solve our problems

Chocolate Right,
So women have advantages over men because we are generally stronger physically, we "get ourselves pregnant" deliberately, we rape men, and we pay men for sexual services on a regular basis, we earn more than men and we catcall humiliate men in the street on a regular basis. We also take part in body shaming men who don't meet unrealistic standards.

Male pattern violence is something to ignore because it bares no significance compared to the power women have over men really.

The 140 women per year killed by men in DV pales in comparison to the 1-2 men killed per year in DV.