Do you think men can be feminists?

[AVirginLitTheCandle]

This may sound like a stupid question but do you think men can be feminists?

I've always thought they can be but I perhaps some radical feminists will disagree with me.

Interesting question. The most feminist man I know is just a decent guy who looked after his kids and house more so his wife could get ahead; thinks to ask you how you feel about gender-based issues; doesn't put you down or hi-jack your comments or mansplain, and generally is unassuming (and successful in his own right too) and genuinely decent. I don't think he would call himself a feminist - indeed, he once said feminism's waters were too choppy for him (a joke about waves) - but he would not tell me how to think either.

I would be wary of any self-proclaimed male feminist - just walk the walk, actions speak louder than words.

I know three or four men who I would describe as feminists. I actually don't know if they describe themselves that way as I haven't asked them but in their own different ways I see each of them regularly calling out casual misogyny and standing up to be counted.

I'm not particularly interested in whether or not a man calls himself a feminist or an ally or whatever.

Surely the most important thing is that he promotes equality and opposes misogyny where he sees it.

Can't say I've ever met a man who calls himself a feminist but I know a few who seem to be behaving in a reasonably feminist way.

Frameymcframe I can't help but notice past tense in your post... Your brother sounds lovely

Ah, one of these discussions. An argument about feminism which rests on the definition of the word "feminism".

I'm truly scared if I engaged with you I'll end up like you.

I doubt it. You appear to lack the facility for critical thinking and basic manners you would require to become even a slight facsimile.

If men can't be feminists because they are unwilling/unable to give up privilege, does that mean all white people are racist and all straight people are homophobic?

"If men can't be feminists because they are unwilling/unable to give up privilege, does that mean all white people are racist and all straight people are homophobic?"

Racist and Homophobic I think are strong terms to use, but to an extent I think yes, they probably are. That doesn't mean they'll be joining up with the religious fundamentalist crew, or the EDL, but it does mean that their judgement is clouded by virtue of their privilege and they (and I include myself in this) need to be aware that.

Everyone is prejudiced to an extent, an awareness of that prejudice and the fact that it may (is likley to be!) incorrect is what separates normal folk from the extremists.

FWIW I think this kind of argument illustrates why Feminism is so important, it's frowned on being a homophobe/racist by much of society. Hate speech in this context is generally not tolerated, however misogyny and misogynistic behaviour is tolerated and encouraged to a much greater extent in my view.

If men can't be feminists because they are unwilling/unable to give up privilege, does that mean all white people are racist and all straight people are homophobic?

It's not as binary as this post suggests. Not feminist =/= sexist (which is the equivalent of racist/homophobic).
Its more similar to arguing whether a white person can be a black activist, or whether a straight person can be an LGBT activist. Most people would be about a straight person speaking on behalf of the LGBT community. I feel the same about a man claiming to be feminist and speaking on behalf of women.
I am behind the #heforshe campaign though, feminism needs male allies to progress.

Surely if you are pro equal rights you are a femisnist, it's not the same as being a representative for the community? Lots of my male friends say they feel like they're feminists but are embarrassed to label themselves that was in case it looks like they're just trying to make themselves look more appealing to women, which I find really sad.
As other people have said, you can campaign for civil rights while being white - I think depressingly civil rights and feminism needs the support of white males to effect changes sometimes, as they are more commonly in a position of power. And that's not saying 'we need men to rescue us' or anything sick like that, just the shit truth in my opinion.

I agree with devi

That phrase has always grated but i havent been able to write down why

Its a wee bit like saying that if you are not a christian you must be a pagan or if you are not a conservative you must be an anarchist

Let's turn it round.

What's so bad about a man who believes in the tenets of feminism calling himself a feminist ally?

Absolutely what Devi said.

If men aren't willing to actually do anything supportive then they're perpetuating the system that affords them privilege. We don't need them to represent us, we need them to amplify our voices which are usually swept under a carpet of mansplaining.

In the face of present challenge, many privileges will need to be shed.

If men really wanted to they could get rid of most of the need for feminism today.

But they don't actually want to.

If it's up to men to change things - then don't you need men to believe in and engage with feminism ? Saying "ah but you can't actually be one" seems a bit pointless ?

Flaxen

Why can't men engage with feminism as feminist allies? What's wrong with that?

So you need to be called a feminist before you will engage?

Girl, if tomorrow all the powerful white people of the world said 'we're black activists' what would the reaction be do you think? Wouldn't it make more sense for those white people to say 'we've listened to what black activists want and we've changed things accordingly'?

Any man I have ever seen who calls himself a feminist only does so because he believes he knows feminism better than any woman and he wants to tell women how to think, feel and act. Witness DrMorbius who came on this thread to tell us what were discussing what a 'made up argument.' The issue is that men aren't currently capable of being feminists because they are still mired so deeply in their own privilege.

Incidentally my DH has studied feminism extensively and totally agrees with it, but I still wouldn't consider him a feminist and nor would he, because he still doesn't 'get' things. For him feminism is a largely intellectual exercise, he engages with it in terms of information and arguments. For me, feminism is about my fundamental liberty, safety and right to life.

If it's up to men to change things - then don't you need men to believe in and engage with feminism ?

It's possible to support a political movement without having to be central to it. That's what being an ally is.

Saying "ah but you can't actually be one" seems a bit pointless ?

Depends whether you think that men are petulant toddlers who are incapable of altruism if they can't be centred in a political movement.

I'm not a gay man, however I am supportive of gay men having no bars to equality and equity, without the need to have a badge that says that I'm a gay rights activist.

Besides anything else, feminism only exists because of the privilege and power men have. It's a bit nonsensical for men to get involved with fighting the effects of their own privilege. What they actually have to do is to use that privilege to even out the playing field. The problem is that most men don't want to do that.

What they actually have to do is to use that privilege to even out the playing field. The problem is that most men don't want to do that.

Suppose that you are right about that, and I think you probably are, because most men it seems do not see that they have any privilege and get pissed off when feminists (a small subset of women) tell them they do. Since men cannot experience what women do, and vice versa - they must accept that your account of the experience of being a man in western society today is better than that of being a female, but they are absolutely not allowed to speculate on the experience of being female.

Supposing then that they were persuaded that you were right, you then say "but because you are not a woman, you cannot have much of a say in formulating or discussing the social changes we think are required, but you will absolutely be required to implement them." Seems like that's rather a tough sell.