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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Jenni Murray Woman's hour today (trans)

401 replies

Notwhatiexpected · 02/12/2016 11:12

Hey,
Did anyone hear Jenni Murray on woman's hour today, her guest was India Willoughby. India is trans and was advocating that it was correct for the Dorchester to dictate that their female staff shave their legs.

India was very spiked in her conversation and implied Jenni was transphobic because the panalists didn't agree.

Again, a woman being called transphobic because they didn't agree with a transwoman's opinion.

Thank you Jenni for standing up for women!

OP posts:
Diemfdie · 03/12/2016 13:08

India can reasonably hold the view that unshaved female legs should be shaved. But Jenni disagreeing is not transphobia - that seems obvious.

The 'bell-end'/'women not having penises'/stereotypically male' comments could be said to be transphobic, though... unless I've missfollowed the thread?

What has her physical body got to do with her opinions?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 03/12/2016 13:15

I don't think it's transphobic to point out if a transwoman holds views that are stereotypically male. It's very much focusing on the views not the person and it's something I have heard women say of other women's words.

Diemfdie · 03/12/2016 13:24

No, but that isn't what I said.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 03/12/2016 13:31

I've listened. Jenni and her guest were perfectly polite and respectful. Disagreeing with someone espousing sexist views about policing women's appearance and, in disagreeing, pointing out that women being required to shave to be acceptable is a long running controversy is not transphobic.

LumelaMme · 03/12/2016 13:34

What has her physical body got to do with her opinions?
She presents as a woman, but lacks the experience of growing up female, with all that entails. Therefore her opinions about women lack the underpinnings of years of experience (which was glaringly obvious in her response to Jenni Murray when asked about leg shaving), and her telling the world that a differential dress code is just fine doesn't half smack of 'transplaining'. So her physical body IS relevant, because it wasn't always female, and the DNA is still XY.

I'd have no problem sharing the ladies lavs with India, but I DO have a problem with India telling me (and the world) how women should be.

FloraFox · 03/12/2016 13:37

What has her physical body got to do with her opinions?

Nothing. India has a male body and holds sexist views about women. Not an uncommon state of affairs but not intrinsically linked.

HairyLittlePoet · 03/12/2016 13:44

What has her physical body got to do with her opinions?

When that physically male body got to enjoy several decades with hairy legs because it is male, it makes a difference when the male mouth attached to the same male body advocates sacking females for attempting to exercise a similar privilege.

Diemfdie · 03/12/2016 13:48

Yes, Jenni and her guests were polite and respectful. I didn't hear Jenni using the term 'bell-end' and laughing as it was applied to a transwoman.

That would have been transphobic, though, would it?

A sexist person can be argued against without having their genitals ridiculed... that was sort of what I was asking.

HairyLittlePoet · 03/12/2016 13:48

And to ram that point home, Jonathon Willoughby, who had hairy legs and still held down a career, after transition to 'India' has been retroactively declared to have been 'a woman all along'
I don't hear India offering to hand back those earnings to IT for performing 'her' job with hairy legs all those years whilst 'actually a woman'.

It matters because it is gross hypocrisy.

HairyLittlePoet · 03/12/2016 13:49

*ITV

Ma1low51 · 03/12/2016 14:00

India was on Newsnight (?)/ some news programme debating and all India talked about was spas and clothes shopping. It was nauseating.

Datun · 03/12/2016 14:21

Diem

Yes, Jenni and her guests were polite and respectful. I didn't hear Jenni using the term 'bell-end' and laughing as it was applied to a transwoman.

Despite what it describes, I've heard the term bellend applied pretty liberally on here, to members of both sexes. Not sure it was specifically targeting India's genitals. Rather like the C word being used towards men.

I called a prominent female MP a complete knob the other day.

Diemfdie · 03/12/2016 14:26

Datun Oh, silly me! I must have missread the thread after all! Oops!

ageingrunner · 03/12/2016 14:46

If the bellend fits...

Datun · 03/12/2016 15:08

I still don't get your point Diem. I've pointed out the use of the term bellend is applicable across the sexes. Which it is. Would you have been happier for the poster to have used the C word?

If you are trying to make a connection between the term bellend and the fact that India Willoughby was born male,
go right ahead. I just don't agree it was. No one is disputing that the fact that she was born male has an impact on her telling women how they should behave, however.

Do you think if she has the right and experience to tell women if they don't shave their legs they should be fired?

shivermytimbers · 03/12/2016 15:14

Hi Diem. It was me who called India a bellend. It was probably a bit flippant but I just thought it was interesting that I can call (and have called) women a bellend without any controversy, but it takes on a whole new meaning when I apply it to a transwoman. This might suggest that it is impossible to treat a transwoman as a woman because, well, they're not and they bring their male history with them, like it or not.
For the record, I'm quite happy for anyone who wants to wear make up and dresses, shave their legs and call themselves by a different name to do just that if it makes them happy but I don't appreciate anyone trying to reinforce gender stereotypes in such a repressive and dogmatic way. I think it makes them a bellend.

HairyLittlePoet · 03/12/2016 15:19

I don't think the use of the term "bellend" (who used it anyway, I missed that) would have been used to refer to or belittle India's actual "bellend", or indeed the "bellend" of any other "bellend"-owner.

In general use, it is a short-hand term reserved for people of both sexes who hold deliberately offensive and hateful views (such as the sacking of the opposite sex for attempting to enjoy a privilege which the "bellend" has enjoyed extensively themselves).

Thus, it is my opinion that India Willoughby can justifiably be called a "bellend" on the basis of spouting "bellend" views, or rather the views can be attributed to a "bellend" state of mind. I have no inside knowledge on whether India Willoughby actually HAS a "bellend" any more, nor I imagine does anyone else on this thread, so I doubt we could knowledgeably call India a "bellend" on the basis that India HAS a "bellend".

Let's not speculate on the presence or absence of India's physical "bellend", rather lets focus on India's "bellend" views.

Datun · 03/12/2016 15:24

As far as I know she is bellendless. Which I can totally see becoming a real insult.

ageingrunner · 03/12/2016 15:28

I think the original bellend is repurposed in srs. I'm no expert though.

PoochSmooch · 03/12/2016 15:29

I made a complete bellend of myself yesterday. I posted as much on my facebook. Everybody agreed I had made a bellend of myself. I remained a woman.

It's unisex. Or gender neutral, if you prefer.

Diemfdie · 03/12/2016 15:37

shivermy yes, I saw your post. Bellend was used in the way that Datun 'mumsplained' we use the term in English.

So I've no problem with that... although it's also 'interesting' that
if a man says a woman is a c*nt when he disagrees with her, we raise an eyebrow. Because the word was chosen to attack the dignity of the person, not their views.

But you're not the only person who used the term in this thread, and it's not the only thing that's transbashing in the thread.

A transwoman is a transwoman, not a 'not woman' or a 'not man'. There is no need to try to treat her 'like a woman'... what does that even mean? Treat her like a person.

Her views may be illogical and sexist and dogmatic and ridiculous, yes.

Fwiw, I'm plaiting my own kneehair now. Then I'm going to braid my beard, put on some heels and take a pee standing up.

It's 2016. Feminism is not about taking down minority groups.

HairyLittlePoet · 03/12/2016 15:42

I don't think anyone here is bashing a bellend?

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 03/12/2016 15:54

It's 2016. Feminism is not about taking down minority groups

No, but it is about challenging sexist and mysogynist attitudes whenever we see them espoused. If you take the trouble to read the longer running, more discursive threads you'll see that most MNers support trans individuals in being protected from discrimination and violence, just not at the expense of protecting born women from discrimination and violence.

shivermytimbers · 03/12/2016 15:56

Absolutely agree with a lot of what you've said there Diem. Everyone is entitled to be treated "as a person"and I have no doubt that India has had a complex and challenging life that has brought it's own struggles. However, her struggles are not going to be the same as a woman's struggles (that doesn't make them any less valid). In any discussion, it is valuable to hear views from a range of standpoints which reflect people's individual histories, experiences and backgrounds. India was in the unique position on that panel to look at the issue of gender stereotypes as someone who had presented themselves in two very different ways during their life and the question that Jenni asked about shaving legs as a man would have allowed her to use that insight to develop the discussion further. By shutting down that line of enquiry, I felt that India wasn't seeking to be interviewed as a 'person' but as a fabricated character that was denying her own unique history.
That possibly doesn't make as much sense as I would like it to, but hopefully you get my gist.

Datun · 03/12/2016 15:57

And not giving much credence to people born male, telling women how to do (or not) feminity and womanhood.