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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

736 replies

BeyondTheHarpy · 17/11/2016 17:35

I know this has already been mentioned in the PL thread, but I thought it might be an idea to bring it to the attention of mners in a thread of its own.

After the PL debacle, there followed a thread in AIBU about toilet. On which this post appeared...
"I'm with you OP and I'm horrified by the transphobia on Mumsnet. I have done some work with Transmedia Watch who are trying to persuade MNHQ to treat transphobia as they would treat any other hate crime. I don't know what MNHQ have against the trans community or why they don't challenge the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies."

So, yeah, just letting you know that they are (allegedly) on the case with mnhq.

OP posts:
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Datun · 05/12/2016 09:59

He's already looking, no law is going to change that.

Bloody hell, this is difficult. He is not looking at you if you is not allowed in there. If he is allowed in there, he is perfectly entitled to look at you, stare you, and you challenging it will be impossible. It will be discriminatory.

shinynewusername · 05/12/2016 10:01

If a hairy biker dude does ever follow you in to the changing room, here's an idea, you could say "excuse me I think you're in the wrong room"

No, we can't. Because the change in the law will mean that he has a perfect right to be there if he claims to identify as a woman. As usual on these threads, the person shouting "prejudice" doesn't actually understand what the change in the law will mean.

Datun · 05/12/2016 10:11

Because the change in the law will mean that he has a perfect right to be there if he claims to identify as a woman.

And the change in criteria for identifying as a woman means you don't have to have 'socially or medically transitioned'. You can be the biggest, hairiest, most tattooed biker, with I'm a rapist etched on your forehead, and as long as you say you're a woman, you're in.

If you challenge that, and it went to a tribunal, you would lose. Nowhere in the legislation does it say you have to look and act a certain way. You can look and act how you like, as long as you identify as woman.

Do you seriously think all that this legislation says if you identify as a woman, you must wear this, say that and act a certain way. Of course not, because that is discriminatory.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/12/2016 10:11

Datun - I think when people see rank misogyny coming from women, they tend to think it's due to ignorance and a sense of them not being bothered and perhaps a passive acceptance of ' that's just how things are'. When it comes from men, I think people see it as something more deliberate attached to an agenda and a strong sense of superiority.

Yes, you are quite right although I do think that some women are invested in misogyny as much as men...

I was / am making no assumptions about the sex of the poster in question, though.

AllPartOfThePlan · 05/12/2016 10:11

And if he genuinely identifies as a woman and feels he should be there and you are polite to him he'll probably just say either "actually I identify as a woman and have every right to be here, but I understand you are uncomfortable so I'll wait/use that cubicle/go in the men's" or if he's straight and male "oh sorry love, my mistake". The law doesn't mean you can't check someone made a mistake or look after yourself if you feel uncomfortable.

Datun noooooooo dear. If someone is just a dirty peeping tom, they're already doing it. No law will stop them, the law already says they can't do that. If someone is in a changing room staring at you, male or female, you do now and always will have the right to tell them to fuck off and report it to the police. 🙄 Why is this so hard to understand?? Think of all the men in your life, your dad, uncles, brothers, work colleagues, friends, etc. These are men. Among them are going to be a few closeted freaky ones who maybe have snuck a look at someone or who have pushed a woman further than she wanted to go, sad fact but true. Those guys are not going to suddenly march into a changing room announcing they're a woman and sit there jacking off whilst you clutch your pearls and fumble for your towel. It's not going to happen any more than it does already. 🙄

shinynewusername · 05/12/2016 10:21

Allpart I don't believe for one second that you are a biologically female survivor of sexual violence. I'm not going to engage with you any further.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/12/2016 10:27

Allpart I don't believe for one second that you are a biologically female survivor of sexual violence. I'm not going to engage with you any further.

I'm with you ...

ClaudiaApfelstrudel · 05/12/2016 10:28

what a revolting post allpartoftheplan

Xenophile · 05/12/2016 10:29

Shiny, its poor form, but I can recommend using AS here as there are enormous inconsistencies in story on almost every thread.

Xenophile · 05/12/2016 10:32

The point of course being that it already does happen and enacting self identification laws will only make it easier for that type of man to have easy access to their prey. This isn't rocket science.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/12/2016 10:32

what a revolting post allpartoftheplan

mmmmmm I've never heard a biological woman speak / write with quite those apologist sentiments before, let alone the demeaning and misogynistic turns of phrase (pearl-clutching) in the context being used by allpart. In fact, I get a strong whiff of tumblr / reddit ...

Datun · 05/12/2016 10:39

This isn't rocket science.

I agree. I want people to be informed. They don't have to take my word for it. Just do 20 minutes worth of reading. That's all it takes.

I don't know if it's just lack of logic/intelligence or plain old goadiness that makes some people repeat opinions over and over with nothing to back them up.

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 05/12/2016 10:39

All I envy your very simplistic view of the issues surrounding this.

I see it from all sides

I see the effect that things have on my transgender child.

Things such as the school trying to force my child into changing rooms and toilets of the sex they present as currently because of their inclusively policy and my childs gender identity disorder no longer being treated by the mental health team because we refused blockers and it's not inclusive to treat it as a mental health issue.

I also have daughters and a son.

I don't want to send my daughter into school, or to a party at the swimming pool and have a boy or a man being able to flash at them because they have decided minutes before that they want to identify as a woman for an hour.

I don't want my son to be in a position where he could be vulnerable to an accusation by being naked in the same place as someone who is biologically female either.

We were in a refuge for a while they aren't equipped to deal with transgender people, they just aren't. They don't have the knowledge or specialist help that transgender people need, they can't access the services or specialist funding or charity help.

If my child were to be sexually assaulted there would be a whole layer of other issues surrounding that due to the gender identity issues my child has that a rape crisis centre wouldn't be equipped to deal with.

Transgender people need their own safe spaces with specialist help.

Being inclusive helps a very tiny minority, it also helps an increasing number of people to exploit vulnerable people, people like my child don't want to be completely included, they want privacy as much as everyone else does and they want specialised help and services that can actually help and understand their issues, not pretend their life experiences don't matter.

Datun · 05/12/2016 10:43

There's a definite cohort very fond of the use of the word 'dear' (nooooo dear) which does make me smile. Personally I prefer my patronisation to be a little more imaginative, and a little less teenage.

shins · 05/12/2016 10:53

Allpart.. "big hairy old muff"..."silly squawking"... "get over it".. "nooo dear" - you don't like women much do you?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/12/2016 10:53

AS here as there are enormous inconsistencies in story on almost every thread.

Oh yes - I see what you mean!

AllPartOfThePlan · 05/12/2016 11:04

Well I don't know what world you lot are living in but I'm glad I'm not in it, it sounds fucking terrifying to be constantly thinking everyone is out to get me and flash me and rape me. I frankly couldn't care less if you believe me or not, I have survived all the things I have, maybe that's why I understand that not every single guy I come across is a potential rapist and the vast majority are just normal alright people, I'm not scared to use mixed changing rooms, I have no choice at my local leisure centre and never had a problem, nor have I felt anyone was going to jump out and flash my daughter. Maybe I'm stupid enough to think I'm not that desirable that every single man can't comtrol his violent animalistic urges around me, I don't know know, but all of this conversation, knowing my couple of trans friends and having spoken to them about things like this in the past, all they want to do is have a wee and get changed without people beating them up and harassing them, like everyone else does, that's all. They are not the problem and punishing them for a few creeps out there who don't care about laws past, present or future, is not the answer. They don't want to their sex determined by a panel of medical "experts" at huge cost and time and effort and painful medical intervention, they just want to be who they are. You go on an airplane and use the loo there don't you? Are they male and female?? Have you had any problems caused by a change in laws there?? No. 🙄 The trans guys I know look like the sex they identify with, granted some more convincingly than others, but it's a permanent look, not sticking on a bit of loopy and declaring I'm a woman today! If someone were doing that they'd be caught in no time! And wouldn't get away with it because it would very quickly and easily be established whether they're lying! Being trans isn't throwing on a frock for the day, it's an entire identity, a full lifestyle, one where they get harassed constantly, they don't undertake that lightly. I'm sorry you don't understand that and frankly he's, you do sound like squawking ladies clutching your leas when you say "but a man may LOOK at me!!!!" Yeah, he might, probably has without you knowing previously, might do again one day without you knowing, because that's the whole point, they don't want to get caught, they don't want you to know, if they're brazen enough to openly walk into the changing room and do it then they're already breaking a few laws, reducing That by 1 isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. The first penis I saw was a flasher on the Metropolitan Line, had nothing to do with laws and he'd probably still do it today, because he's a dirty sick little creep on a power trip, he doesn't care about laws, he cares about his own entitlement. This law won't encourage someone who isn't like that to do that, it's the same ones who will carry on, they'll always be a problem and are an entirely separate issue, it just protects transgender people who need it now. Honestly I feel like I'm arguing with Trump supporters. I really did not expect MNers to have this attitude at all.

Elsa I agree there aren't enough services and resources to deal appropriately with trans issues like sexual assault etc, which is EXACTLY why new laws which protect members of the trans community are so desperately needed. I really can't understand why you seem to disagree with that and I'm trying to, you're obviously qualified to siscuss this from a personal POV.

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 05/12/2016 11:11

All being transgender now can be simply throwing a dress on for a day. That's what everyone is upset about.

The laws the trans activists are fighting for are for transgender people to use services that are there already, not for specialist services for transgender people.

I don't think anyone on this thread would disagree that there needs to be services for transgender people, in fact I know a few people have really spoken up on other threads in support of specialist help, but latching into services that are already there and denying that transgender people have had different experiences than 'cis' (sorry) people is detrimental to everyone.

Datun · 05/12/2016 11:15

Xenophile

Thanks for the AS tip.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/12/2016 11:15

Allpartoftheplan you sound naive.

AllPartOfThePlan · 05/12/2016 11:33

Oh fuck off with the AS bullshit just because you can't cope with someone disagreeing with the almighty MNMilitia. 🙄

Elsa but that's the point, someone who does throw on a dress for the day just to leave in a changing room obviously isn't trans, they're a creep taking advantage and that would be incredibly easy to prove. Whatever their biological makeup, whatever their gender identity, whatever their sexuality, if someone is staring at you in a changing room, flashes you purposefully, or flashes a child, touches you against your wishes or intimidates you that will always be illegal and there will always be repercussions available for that. You can't stop someone who genuinely identifies as a woman from using a woman's changing room, force them into a man's one where they could get harassed or beaten up, because some creep who was doing that already continues to and now says I'm a girl as he does it. I really cannot see any genuine negatives to a change in laws. I can see unfounded fears and scaremongering, but no risks that don't already exist and no reason to not move forwards because of a few nasty creeps who will unfortunately always exist and are a separate issue.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/12/2016 11:40

Do you really think it's likely Danielle Muscato and their ilk (I say their because quite a few transwomen think he/she is trolling and it's not for me to judge) are going to get beaten up in the men's toilet?

Datun · 05/12/2016 11:43

but that's the point, someone who does throw on a dress for the day just to leave in a changing room obviously isn't trans, they're a creep taking advantage and that would be incredibly easy to prove

Interesting. How would you do that exactly?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/12/2016 11:43

No it wouldn't be incredibly easy to prove because 100% self identification means no requirement for consistency. They can claim gender fluidity.