Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

[BeyondTheHarpy]

I know this has already been mentioned in the PL thread, but I thought it might be an idea to bring it to the attention of mners in a thread of its own.

After the PL debacle, there followed a thread in AIBU about toilet. On which this post appeared...
"I'm with you OP and I'm horrified by the transphobia on Mumsnet. I have done some work with Transmedia Watch who are trying to persuade MNHQ to treat transphobia as they would treat any other hate crime. I don't know what MNHQ have against the trans community or why they don't challenge the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies."

So, yeah, just letting you know that they are (allegedly) on the case with mnhq.

Well pretty much everything Maths said to be honest! I tick a lot of those boxes and have accessed a lot of those services before and not once have I been concerned that a man is present. In fact in the vast majority of instances, even when reporting rape and domestic violence, the male professionals have been far more understanding and easier to talk to than the women, in my experience the women were HORRENDOUS. The ONLY thing I can kind of see is teenage girls in school changing rooms and boys on the girls teams, but if a boy genuinely identifies as female then tough luck, get over it, he's on the girl's team, stick up a curtain and off you trot. My local leisure centre has mixed changing rooms. I've never once seen a penis there that wasn't my husband's nor have I ever felt concerned that someone is trying to peep into the cubicle. Trans women are not hairy biker dudes in a frock out to rape you. They just want to have a wee ffs. 🙄 I didn't reply when Maths did because honestly 80% of what she wrote I took to be very offensive and ill informed and ridiculously chicken little frankly and I didn't think it worth getting in an argument over but since you asked! I'm a rape survivor, I'm a DV survivor, I've been in a reguge, and even I can see this is just stupid.

Wow and rest...............

So to sum up in context to the thread. In your opion you can only be a man or a woman (with liberty to do what you want to your body and Wear what you want)? Thus everyone should use the facilities assigned base on their sex at birth?

When I say mental gender I was talking about the gender you feel you are, thought that was pretty obvious.

I think the fact that you haven't seen a penis in a shared changing room misses the point. Firstly the law hasn't changed yet and secondly you seem to be talking about shared changing rooms with cubicles. When the law changes, it will apply to all changing rooms, including communal ones. Are you really telling me you are happy to be nude in front of men whom you don't know?

And I don't understand the bit about putting a curtain up. The whole point about the proposed law is that this would be discriminatory.

Male refuge workers eh?

Right oh!

Of course it wouldn't mean that and that is a ludicrous suggestion! Even in women's changing rooms now (can't speak for men's as I don't know!) there are always cubicles and curtains for the more shy among us! That's not going to change! I have never not been able to find a private spelace to change if I've needed to, even if I have to go into a toilet cubicle to do it. But I've never been one of these woman who is happy to wander around a changing room butt naked bold as brass anyway, even in front of women I'll keep a towel around me or go into a cubicle and frankly I wish they'd all do that because I hate sitting to put my shoes on and there's some big old hairy muff in my face, frankly I'd rather see a penis if I had to choose! But they're not going to get rid of cubicles and curtains and most trans women I know wouldn't want to be naked in a female changing room anyway, they'd want a cubicle! That's the chicken little part of your post. They're going to tear down the curtains! There'll be dudes in dresses trying to rape us everywhere we go! A man might look at my arse!!! Sweetheart they're really not interested, like most people. The one in like 10,000 men who would be inclined to walk into a changing room just to peep at you or attack you are already doing it. This is for the ones who just want to feel accepted and have a wee. No, it really doesn't worry me at all.

All Genuine trans women are not out to do anything other than get on with their lives.

As it stands anyone can wake up, say they identify as a female and gain access to female spaces now. That's what people are objecting to.

A bloke can rape and beat a woman one day, the next day say he identifies as a woman and be in a refuge or toilet or changing room with women and girls.

As well as that, I was also in a refuge, with my child who has GID. They don't have the specialist skills or knowledge to deal with transgender people. They tried, they did as good a job as they possibly could, but the simple fact us transgender people need their own specialist help in refuges and rape centres. It isn't transphobic to say that, it's true.

It's doing everyone a disservice to treat transgender people and women as though the experiences they have had are the same.

Trans women are not hairy biker dudes in a frock out to rape you.

You're spectacularly missing the point. It's any man. Anywhere. How on earth can you tell the difference between a voyeur, a peeping Tom, a rapist, a transwoman, and Bob the Builder? You can't.

And these free and easy women, who are perfectly happy walking around naked in the communal areas are now going to include any man who says he's a woman. You won't be able to ask him to use a cubicle, any more than you can insist a woman does.

If you really don't think that a predatory man (whether trans or not) will not exploit this, you are unbelievably naive.

"their sex at birth?"

Is there any other kind of sex?

You do realise, I hope, that it is not possible to change one's sex which is encoded into every cell in his or her body.

Pumping a male with female hormones, cutting off his genitals, and making a hole in his lower body does not turn him into a female (= of the sex that can bear young or make eggs).

Cutting off a female's breasts and giving her male hormones for the rest of her life does not turn her into a male (= of the sex that can make sperm).

None of this is opinion. It is medical fact and common knowledge as can be learned from any dictionary.

When I say mental gender I was talking about the gender you feel you are, thought that was pretty obvious.

Dad

Gender is merely the expression of stereotypically masculine or feminine behaviour. Of all the 76 genders currently on record it is basically that.

It's brilliant that people are feeling that they can explore the stereotypically behaviour of the opposite gender, and present as such. Let's encourage it.

It doesn't mean you can change sex.

Elsa

Thank you, once again for adding your voice to these threads. As the parent of a transgender child, your experience is so useful because of its credibility.

there are always cubicles and curtains for the more shy among us! That's not going to change!

I've never been a change room with cubicles other than toilets and showers. I've never had a "big old hairy muff in my face" either. I'm seriously trying to figure out how that could even happen ... (let alone the fact that it is offensive, and, to be frank, the kind of language I'd expect to be used on tumblr or reddit).

It seems to me that if a transsexual woman has had full genital surgery and has lived convincingly in the female role for a long long time I don't really feel any problem with them...but. That said that I'm really not sure I've ever come across one of these - Some of them may look like women but often the minute they open their mouths you know that there is something not quite right and the learned male entitlement often seems to follow on next..

A man with a penis who claims to be a woman shouldn't be anywhere near any female space whatsoever..ever. I don't know where they should go, but it's not really my problem either, it's a problem for them to find their own way.

With regard to sports perhaps this is the more difficult area as there isn't really any information either way to suggest that a fully transitioned transsexual has an advantage. I suspect they may well do and if this is the case then they shouldn't be competing with ordinary women. They'll have to accept that if they don't like it, tough - learning to deal with oppression, and male entitlement is something if they really 'felt like a woman' they'd understand would want to take on board seems to me.

I would be a lot more open to debate over the issue of sport, if there were lots of transmen winning male events. If it is just a question of hormone balance it should work both ways.

but if a boy genuinely identifies as female then tough luck, get over it, he's on the girl's team, stick up a curtain and off you trot.
Well, that spectacularly misses the point. Boys (and men) tend to be bigger and stronger than girls (and women). If boys can go on the girls team, men who 'feel like' women (or claim they do) will be competing in women's sports, and women (XY women) won't have a bat's chance in hell at the medals in the Olympics.

Super.

but if a boy genuinely identifies as female then tough luck, get over it, he's on the girl's team, stick up a curtain and off you trot.

It's wonderful how women and girls are just supposed to move over, isn't it?

but if a boy genuinely identifies as female then tough luck, get over it, he's on the girl's team, stick up a curtain and off you trot.

How would that sound if a man wrote it?

I know some trans men and women and they are the least predatory people you will find, they are the victims if anything! The guys who are a serious risk to women, who are out to rape you are already doing it. They are the ones in nightclubs watching who is too drunk to fight back. They are the ones following line joggers at night. They are the husbands with access to their wife victims at home whilst they put on a perfect act to the outside world. They are the ones who are already doing exactly what you're scared of and they'll keep on doing it regardless of any laws. If they cared for laws they wouldn't be rapists! They are the ones who since the dawn of time have always followed women into a public loo. They're not all going to suddenly start now after years of good behaviour because of a law! That's ridiculous! Random heterosexual men are not going to wander in claiming they feel like a woman then raping you, it's not going to happen any more than it already does now. 🙄 Look up a man called Buck Angel. He is a trans porn star and activist. He has a vagina. Which changing room would you like him to use? He has a vagina so... the ladies'? And sports, he can't play rugby no, I mean he has a vagina! Please do let me know when you have that conversation with him, I'd love to watch it! You are at no further risk from using a changing room after the law than you were 10 years ago. In fact genuine trans women have been using female facilities right next to you your entire life and you've never known, because they look like women! That's the point! If a hairy biker dude does ever follow you in to the changing room, here's an idea, you could say "excuse me I think you're in the wrong room", you could walk out till he's gone, you could go into a toilet or shower cubicle or a curtained area, you could ask a member of staff to come in, you could get your phone out and video descreetly anything that happens, you could say "I'm sorry, I'm not comfortable changing in front of you and I can't find a private cubicle, I'm nearly done, would you mind waiting outside for just a few more minutes, thank you" and any genuine person would understand that and oblige, you could wrap your towel round yourself, you could go into the men's and say you feel like a man today and use one of their cubicles, or you could find a decent gym where they have cubicles to change in. But I'd wager no more hairy truckers and bikers are going to be attacking you in bathrooms any more than they are already. I actually can't believe we're having this conversation in the uk, I honestly thought this was another stupid American thing. It's really disappointing.

Datun I think you make a good point if it were just hormone balance it should work both ways.. wasn't there a case recently of a transman finishing relatively highly in a professional sports event? I remember reading about it on here. I'm trying to remain open minded to it but if this particular transman were the norm then surely we'd see more transmen involved in male sports competitively.

There we go, Buck Angel, the trans man who still has a vagina so he's coming to a changing room near you soon. Run away!!!! The sky is falling the sky is falling!

Datun

but if a boy genuinely identifies as female then tough luck, get over it, he's on the girl's team, stick up a curtain and off you trot.

How would that sound if a man wrote it?*

Exactly the same as written above? ???

Spartacus and Datun no, it works both ways, I'm using boys as an example because that's what all this silly squawking is about but if a girl identifies as a boy and wants to use the boys changing room and play football then tough luck if the boys don't like it too. It's 2016, not 1916, it's about time everyone got over all this and just let people be. 🙄

all

I don't know if you're merely uninformed or just being obtuse. Please do some reading.

If people are going to commit crimes, despite laws to help prevent them, you may as well just abandon all laws. It's a spurious argument.

Sigh.

I was being sarcastic, but never mind. :) Whoooosh! as they say.

No you are saying there's going to be a rise in crime because of an inclusive law. My argument is any law isn't going to stop someone who wants to break it. "If you let him in the bathroom he's going to rape me!" No, if he wants to rape you in the bathroom he'll be following you in there whether there's a law or not. "He'll look at me!" He's already looking, no law is going to change that. The only change will be that people who genuinely need inclusivity and want to use the bathroom they identify with will be able to do so. Creeps and rapists will always exist and do what they do with or without any laws.

yet

I knew that would get noticed. I was going to add that the sentiment is the same, because it is. But I let it stand.

I think when people see rank misogyny coming from women, they tend to think it's due to ignorance and a sense of them not being bothered and perhaps a passive acceptance of ' that's just how things are'. When it comes from men, I think people see it as something more deliberate attached to an agenda and a strong sense of superiority.