Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

[BeyondTheHarpy]

I know this has already been mentioned in the PL thread, but I thought it might be an idea to bring it to the attention of mners in a thread of its own.

After the PL debacle, there followed a thread in AIBU about toilet. On which this post appeared...
"I'm with you OP and I'm horrified by the transphobia on Mumsnet. I have done some work with Transmedia Watch who are trying to persuade MNHQ to treat transphobia as they would treat any other hate crime. I don't know what MNHQ have against the trans community or why they don't challenge the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies."

So, yeah, just letting you know that they are (allegedly) on the case with mnhq.

they're a creep taking advantage and that would be incredibly easy to prove.

How would you prove it without being accused of transphobia?

How could you prove someone has flashed you purposefully rather than just walk about with their female penis?

Why should there be reprocussions for the aftermath of perverts taking advantage rather than laws in place to stop it in the first place?

What is the issue with having a separate space for transgender people exactly?

They don't want to their sex determined by a panel of medical "experts" at huge cost and time and effort and painful medical intervention

'there will always be repercussions available for that.'

--in theory, but in practice only a tiny number of flashes, gropes, peeping toms etc are punished. None of mine have. Most I didn't report, the one I called the police on was long gone by the time the police got there. The one who groped me on a North Sea ferry would have been able to identify if the crew had listened to me but they didn't.
And as for rapists, I know many women who have been raped but literally only one whose rapist was convicted.

Mostly there are no repercussions and it is naive to think there are.

I'm kind of weirded out that AllPart can be so open-minded when it comes to men seeing her naked and when it comes to women say "But I've never been one of these woman who is happy to wander around a changing room butt naked bold as brass anyway, even in front of women I'll keep a towel around me or go into a cubicle and frankly I wish they'd all do that because I hate sitting to put my shoes on and there's some big old hairy muff in my face, frankly I'd rather see a penis if I had to choose!

Wouldn't it be great if there really were repercussions for every sex crime committed
All the time feminists focus on that, we could put into other issues.

There ARE laws in place to prevent it. 🙄

So you are suggesting that these people have no one else in their life at all who can vouch that they are gender fluid. They suddenly just decided that the day without anyone in their entire world being able to back that up. I don't think so somehow. if someone is gender fluid enough to brazenly walk into a female changing room with a penis out and claim that they are a woman, then they are clearly comfortable enough to have people in their life who know that about them.

Are you seriously suggesting that every single restaurant, shopping centre, leisure centre, gym, school, workplace, every single public place that has toilets in the entire country, create a separate one just for transgender gender fluid people. You seriously think that that is workable?

I took my daughter to a swimming pool a few months ago, we went into the female changing room, found a curtain off section and got changed, came out and there were half a dozen women walking around in various stages of undress, and one random middle-aged man. I only saw him very briefly, I can't even remember what really was happening, whether he was just walking through or had got changed in there, I'm not really sure, it didn't really affect me because we were already changed and have done so in the private cubicle, but he obviously shouldn't have been in there. I'm not sure exactly what he was doing, whether he was lost, or whether he was arrogant enough to just think he could go in there, or whether he was indeed trying to look at women, I don't really think it was that because he then walked into the same swimming pool with the rest of us and sat with his wife and just swam like everyone else was. It was hold him being in there, but it wasn't scary, it wasn't creepy. Had I been in there longer and seen him walking around, I would have had no problem saying to him I think you are in the wrong room. If I didn't feel I could do that I would have had no problem going out and getting a member of staff. He was in his swimming trunks, but not naked and flashing anyone from what I saw. But it certainly wasn't this huge traumatic terrifying event from my POV. Maybe the other women felt uncomfortable as they may have been in that room longer with him or undress when he was there, I didn't see, it was only a split second that I saw him. But are we really so delicate as a sex that we can't say to someone you are in the wrong place, what are you doing? I was with my dad at the time and when I saw my dad in the pool I said to him that guy was just in the ladies changing room. And even he just went huh? And we all got on with our lives. Yeah he shouldn't have been there but I just concluded he was confused and followed his wife. I didn't get PTSD from it.

Ignorance is one thing. And being opinionated is another.

The alchemy when the two are combined is breathtaking.

Oh whatever. Fine. You will go off and have your little ladies lunch club crying about the big bad men. I'll actually get on with my life. Not every man is out to rape you. And I pity your lives if that's how you think.

All
It's interesting that you have no consideration for women at all but trans people need all the consideration in the world.

And please use paragraphs, it breaks up your stream of consciousness

Allpart, if it is so easy for anyone to just report when they feel someone has overstepped the mark and threatened them in a changing room, then why can't transwomen in men's changing rooms just do that?

It's a genuine question. But for ease of use, I'll give you a clue. Male violence. Because you know and we know that the problem is male violence. And the answer that you propose is the same one that there has always been - women need to accommodate it. Transwomen are making the same assessment that women make - I am safer in women only spaces. Ironically, this reasoning makes the spaces unsafe for everyone, due to the reasons that PPs have pointed out above, that they are now unpoliceable.

The secondary element is one of validation for transwomen - if they're not in the women's spaces, then they feel they're not being viewed as authentic. They're entitled to want that. But we're also entitled to say, no, we don't consent to that. Women are allowed boundaries.

And I'm not a pearl clutcher. This morning, I changed in a unisex changing room (individual cubicles). And I was just dandy. But when other women tell me they aren't, I listen to them and I try to be empathetic to their reasons. I don't just tell them they're making a fuss.

I don't see the point of that anecdote. It was a non-threatening situation, you didn't feel threatened. There were plenty of people around, you weren't alone, and it sounds like he was going about his business rather than, say, standing there staring at you with an erection. I don't tend to be creeped out in non-creepy scenarios either, but unfortunately that's not the only kind of situation that happens.

Yeah he shouldn't have been there but I just concluded he was confused and followed his wife.

One last time. It doesn't MATTER what you concluded. To identify as a woman, there is no piece of paper to sign, no doctor to see, no diagnosis to be made, nothing. Except saying the words. The clue is in the title 'self identification'. You don't have to get it approved, verified, or recorded. Anywhere. Families don't need to know, spouses, children, friends, colleagues. You don't have to be 'transitioning'. You can say it for 15 minutes on a Saturday night, purely to enter a ladies toilet.

Hell, technically you can enter a ladies changing room officially and wrongly as a man, get undressed, start drying your penis under the hand dryer and if you are challenged you can say you identify as a woman. And that is it. No papers, no doctors certificate, no dress, no nothing.

Allpart, if it is so easy for anyone to just report when they feel someone has overstepped the mark and threatened them in a changing room, then why can't transwomen in men's changing rooms just do that?

Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a winner!

Pooch yes you are right in part - male violence. A trans woman goes into the male changing room and there's a chance she's going to get smacked or at least get some nasty comments but I don't see why, in a way, being the bigger person and letting them come into our safe place is such a bad thing! Surely if we are used to being victimised and attacked and we are also scared of male violence, then why can't we be more understanding to a group who also suffers male violence against them?

And the other point is, presumably you are a woman, how would you feel walking into a male changing room and getting changed in front of all those men? Would you feel comfortable?? I wouldn't, I don't feel particularly comfortable in an open female changing room, I don't want to get changed in the men's. Well isn't that how a trans woman feels? If she identifies as a woman and has to get changed in the men's room? That's why. If she's in the women's room she's not looking at the other women, getting an erection and planning to attack, she's too busy worrying what the women are thinking of her and trying to get dressed and out as quickly as possible like anyone else! That's what the majority of people this effects are feeling, from those I've spoken to.

But your hypothetical transwoman can just go behind a curtain in the men's changing rooms, can't they? That's the solution to shyness/modesty/not wanting to be seen?

The answer to your second question is also part of my post. The reason that just letting transwomen into women's changing rooms on the basis of self identification is that the safety of women's changing rooms is thereby lessened for everyone. It's not that the transwomen are necessarily there for bad motives, but the people with the bad motives can now waltz in using self identification and they can't be challenged.

All What I'd you walk into a female changing room and there are several naked transwomen in there who still have their male genitals?

Would you be comfortable then?

And if we're all understanding each other, then where is the average transactivist's empathy for women's fear of violence? Why can't they be the bigger people and help us protect our safe spaces by campaigning for more accessible facilities for everyone? Because that isn't what's happening. And women on here are analysing why that's not happening, and we're coming up with very different answers from you. It doesn't make us wrong.

Datun come on, you know that's not how this will work. 🙄 Why do you have such little faith in people? I'm pretty damaged by men but even I don't buy that for a second. And yes, self identification means they don't need it officially recognised, but do you realise how much they have to go through to get recognised at the moment and what some of the proposals for that in the future are??? That's not right.

And no one answered my question about Buck Angel. This is a man, an incredibly macho butch hard looking man, who has a vagina. Would you be comfortable with him in the ladies'? What about Lea T? Absolutely beautiful woman. You think she cagoule go into the men's and put herself at serious risk? Come on. That's not right. And chances are they and thousands of others have used the room they identify with for years and no one has ever noticed and they'll probably continue to.

And the other point is, presumably you are a woman, how would you feel walking into a male changing room and getting changed in front of all those men? Would you feel comfortable??

I don't feel comfortable in any open changing area tbh. But I am ok with the female ones as everyone has the same as me, and aren't likely to be paying any attention anyway.

If I was male and had a male body, I would still feel uncomfortable in communal changing areas I expect (though maybe not, as men aren't taught to hate their bodies like we are..) so again, everyone has the same and won't be paying attention to each other..so I would be more comfortable in the male room

Allpart - the problem which you don't seem to be seeing, is that with self-identification, there is no "checking" or "asking" family or friends, it can be just "I feel like a woman" for the five minutes Joe Pervert is being a peeping tom, and "I feel like a man" before and afterwards.

The three men charged by police for looking over the cubicles at my local leisure centre in the past couple of years would no longer be committing an offence if they said that while they were in the changing area, they were actually women.

Vaginas are fine in the changing room. Penises are not. Doesn't matter if someone is beautiful or muscly. Clear enough for you?

'Well isn't that how a trans woman feels? If she identifies as a woman and has to get changed in the men's room? That's why. If she's in the women's room she's not looking at the other women, getting an erection and planning to attack, she's too busy worrying what the women are thinking of her and trying to get dressed and out as quickly as possible like anyone else! '

Yes, of course she is, but the point that has been made over and over again that you are missing is that self identification makes it impossible to distinguish between the transwoman who just wants to go swimming and the peeping Tom who wants to watch women change and get off on their discomfort. And if someone is quite obviously doing the latter you won't have a leg to stand on in trying to get them thrown out because they can say they identify as a woman and the law will back them up.
I have transwomen friends and I would quite like them to be able to go swimming without stress but it is not the case that self identification is the only way to achieve that. I quite see that the hoop jumping involved in getting the grs is not ideal as it stands but the system could be simplified and made less sexist without the total disregarding of women's safety and dignity.

AllPartOfThePlan

What on earth do you mean this is not how it will work? The trans-gender equality debate was held in the House of Commons last Thursday, as a result of Maria Millers transgender equality report, running to 98 pages last November.

Prior to this originally to be transgender you had to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. You had to have lived as a woman for two years and acquire a gender recognition certificate.

It is being recommended that all three of those criteria be removed (in fact gender dysphoria already has been removed).

It is being recommended that 'self identification' is the only criteria. Self identification means oneself saying one is a woman. That's it.

Seriously do some reading.

Pooch I don't think it's the actual act of getting undressed that is the problem, it's walking in, as a woman, getting a locker, finding a cubicle, changing in there knowing all those guys are outside probably waiting to jump you, maybe it's just a curtain rather than a locking door, then coming back out, putting your clothes away and leaving, then all that again on the way back plus having a shower... you yourself said, male violence.

And if a load of trans women were in the women's changing room with their penises (peni??) out I think they'd be more concerned about me than the other way round! I honestly don't think I'd be scared, just because they have a penis doesn't mean they want to use it on me.

A trans woman goes into the male changing room and there's a chance she's going to get smacked or at least get some nasty comments.

Like this transwoman?