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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Things you are not supposed to do as a woman ...

149 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 21/10/2016 07:42

... but (still) do anyway (?)

A few random thoughts inspired this thread. Elsewhere on MN there is a thread about going into a pub / bar alone (as a woman) and I was surprised at the number of women who said that they didn't do this, either because of fear of harassment or because it's just not done for women to do this.

Nearly two decades ago I was meeting colleagues before a work dinner at Pub X. I assumed that meant IN Pub X. The first to turn up waited outside for the second to turn up and when both came in they were surprised to see me sitting there with a beer. Conversation ensued about;

  1. Women going into pubs alone
  2. Drinking alone (anywhere)

I learned that these were not acceptable for a woman. Oddly, these women were both academic feminists. They were my superiors, so I didn't say anything other than 'it was cold out and I wanted a seat'.

For a while, I felt a bit odd about going into pubs alone (and ordering a pint or two). But I gradually started doing it again and didn't think oddly of it again until I read that post.

Then I read the Grayson Perry post and the article in the Telegraph. I thought it good, but was also intrigued about how he monitored other men so that he knew what masculinity was. It struck me that I have simply never done this with women / femininity.

Thus, I've been told from time-to-time that I do things that are not expected of women, such as liking whisky, travelling alone, etc.

I was wondering what other women here have always done, but have been told that they should not, as a woman? Are there any interesting stories about how women found out they were breaking gender rules? Did anyone stop doing things because they were told it was unacceptable? Is there anything women want to do but are too inhibited to do for fear of breaking gender rules?

OP posts:
Lorelei76 · 21/10/2016 11:08

Fan, do you mind if I ask your age? Just wondering about my theory on things going backwards...the heels at work thing stuns me but I'm also behind baffled that all schools don't let girls wear trousers, my mum had this conversation with the school,in the 70s, for my older sis.

Fantome · 21/10/2016 11:14

Lorelei - not at all, I'm 16. I wasn't clear enough about the heels at work experience, it was a teacher who told me that unfortunately - when actually there no-one said anything and I saw women in flat shoes, most in fact. Unfortunately my school doesn't get girls wear trousers as part of the uniform, though now I'm in Year 12 we can wear any home clothes which almost makes it more odd as obviously jeans/trousers feature heavily. The gender conditioning in uniform really annoys me, sexualisation of it even worse.

Lorelei76 · 21/10/2016 11:34

Fan, awful of the teacher to say that! It really saddens me about school uniform but I think the number of parents objecting is probably not that high.

Fantome · 21/10/2016 11:37

She said "you can't go wrong with heels" rather than insist but still it was annoying! I try to avoid wearing them as much as possible. I think you're right, I've never heard of any parents objecting, it is ridiculous they insist on skirts though!

Lorelei76 · 21/10/2016 11:39

I should add, I do understand people wanting to be rid of a family name, links etc but I can't get my head around Mrs. I do call the PM Ms May in my head! But I call all women Ms in my head.

Marmalade85 · 21/10/2016 11:52

I go to my local pub alone and get stared at by all the blokes that are there one.

Eolian · 21/10/2016 11:53

I drink pints, used to drink whisky, would go into a pub alone if I were meeting someone (but not go there just to have a drink on my own - not because I'm a woman, but because it's something I see as a sociable activity).

Most of the other things listed here I have never encountered (though I'm aware of them as old-fashioned ideas of things women used to be frowned upon for doing). Maybe it depends on the prevailing attitudes in the area of the country you live in, or the social circles you frequent.

The only one of these sorts of things that comes up regularly for me is going for a dog walk alone. My friend always says things like "Ooh you are brave - I wouldn't go in the woods on my own". It really irritates me. We live in a lovely little village in a very friendly, low-crime area. Why on earth wouldn't I go for a walk on my own?!

Besides, even in less safe areas than mine, men are probably pretty much as likely to get attacked, but I can't see most men refusing to go out alone. I just think people are pretty rubbish at judging risk. You're probably much more likely to be injured or killed in a car accident than you are by being attacked, yet that doesn't stop people from driving.

Fantome · 21/10/2016 11:53

Lorelei - I'd agree if it was just as common for men to change their names when marrying as women, but it's 99.9% of the time (my unscientific research suggests) women. I agree, though, the only titles really should be "Mr" and "Ms" whatever a woman decides to do upon marriage - why do we need our marital status shown by our titles?

MostlyHet · 21/10/2016 11:53

Loulou - I do that too! Glad I'm not the only one.

n0ne · 21/10/2016 12:04

Building flat pack furniture, according to a thread on this very site the other day Hmm
Whistling
Swearing
Intentionally having one-night stands/casual relationships
Being able to understand how a car works and even do minor repairs
Ditto other machinery/appliances/tech
Not wearing or liking heels
Ditto perfume
Not caring about handbags
Not enjoying rom coms or chick lit
Very much enjoying sci fi, fantasy, political thrillers, crime, graphic novels, superhero films

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 21/10/2016 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsJackAubrey · 21/10/2016 12:32

sitting with my legs wide apart if I'm comfortable that way and not intruding in any one's space.

Pubs alone yes for years. Was berated by old man in my local village pub years ago, for being there and 'leaving my husband alone at home'. when I pointed out DP is not Mr Jack Aubrey, his response was 'and no wonder, no one would want to marry you'.

user1475253854 · 21/10/2016 12:33

I don't know lorelei I don't think so, but I haven't come across many PUAs. I was baffled by it.

FreshwaterSelkie · 21/10/2016 12:34

I'm another who drinks pints alone, eats alone, goes to the cinema alone, travels alone, walks dogs alone, sits in an unladylike fashion, and swears like a navvy (navette??).

I caused muchos scandal recently when I went to South East Asia On My Own, and what was worse, I met up with a male friend there and we went to Bali together, alone (no partners)! Oh my! Many furrowed brows. Why didn't I take the husband? Didn't he mind? What about my friend's girlfriend? Wasn't I nervous about all that travelling alone? Nah. I'm happy in my own company, and I am entirely positive that after twenty odd years knowing my male friend, we are never going to get it on. I thought it was quite interesting the amount of friends who couldn't seem to grasp that though - made me wonder if they have to take their partners everywhere with them to remind them they're not supposed to shag other people? Wink

ErrolTheDragon · 21/10/2016 12:39

n0ne - I think my DD breaks all of those 'rules' except the one-night stand (17 and puritanical at the mo, for which reason also no pints or even halfpints), and car repairs (though she has done a boat diesel engine course). Grin

There's another thread about having a drink alone, and most people seemed to be saying 'no problem, take a book' ... so is the rule now, you can go into a pub but only if you take something to read? Is this because that provides a 'reason' for being there, or is it mostly a mechanism for avoiding eye contact?

HillaryFTW · 21/10/2016 12:41

The Mrs May thing snags on my mind too (she's Theresa May in my head). She's been married for 2-3 decades, I assume, and of course she should choose her title as she wishes.

I sit alone in pubs, with wine and kindle. And restaurants.

HillaryFTW · 21/10/2016 12:42

I think most people have kindles or smartphones so something in their bag to read/interact with!

HelenaJustina · 21/10/2016 12:52

Something I discovered that I'm not allowed to do this week is speak to/confront a bullshitting bloke from another company because 'some men respond better to other men'

The more I think about this one the crosser I get...

Fantome · 21/10/2016 13:28

I think the only titles for adults should be "Ms" and "Mr". Then if women want to take their husband's surname, of course, it's their choice, but that should also be a free and equal choice which it's clearly not at the moment, or as many men would take their wives. It just bothers me that the Prime Minister is sending a message to girls that it's normal to give up their names when married, be given the name tag of their husband. Not her fault, just gets to me.

Helena - that is infuriating. It's dismissing women, basically calling us lesser and saying that men could never afford us the respect they do another man.

HillaryFTW · 21/10/2016 13:36

She's been married since 1980, I checked. So 36 years.

It is still more common than not, and in 1980 I'm sure it was even more so!

(I'm a Ms who retained her name so I agree with you in principle, I just hope there are increasing numbers of Mses going forward!)

Fantome · 21/10/2016 13:39

I definitely don't blame her for it, nor any woman, my mum changed her name too (and so I unfortunately have my dad's surname, but I suppose I would have either way - also sexist). I can take being "Miss" for now but when I'm 18 I will definitely want that to be "Ms" and my name is staying mine, I hope more and more women keep theirs and men can change their surnames when they get married if having one name is so important!

ErrolTheDragon · 21/10/2016 13:55

Theresa May is older than me - choices made 30 or more years ago might not be the same today. Though I'd guess she'd be 'traditional'.

Wondering now, whether younger married women MPs are generally Mrs or not. Thinking of some of the higher profile ones, Amber Rudd kept her name, yvette cooper, , liz truss, nicola sturgeon, the Eagles, diane abbott, and obv justine greening, ruth davidson and kezia dugdale ... at the moment the only 'Mrs' I can think of is Andrea Leadsome.

HillaryFTW · 21/10/2016 14:00

This list has some with titles and some without, but there are a few Mses!

www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

ClaudetteWyms · 21/10/2016 14:03

I love this thread. I do a few of the things already mentioned - I love a whisky, drink pints of ale, I go running in the evening in the dark etc. I love a rare steak and DH often chooses a vegetarian dish - we always get given the wrong meals in restaurants.

I have one that hasn't been mentioned yet - I think men have a lot more leeway to be grumpy/dour.

I am quite "dry", don't always have the breezy fake smile we are expected to have, am frequently exhausted, post-menopausal, so probably have a fairly grumpy expression. But I am nice to people I should add!

I have had a fair few women take a real dislike to me before even getting to know me. This morning a "friend" rang me to scream at me down the phone that I blanked her this morning and did I have a problem with her - I had chatted to a couple of friends at school then gone to a meeting, but was clearly expected to hang around and greet everyone I saw with a smile etc.

I know a few men who are really dour and dry, yet they seem well liked and are considered just normal blokes. No-one seems to pick them up on it.

Maybe this one is just me?!

Fantome · 21/10/2016 14:07

Errol - also Alison McGovern, Priti Patel, Rachel Reeves; I'm sure there are quite a few more too, which is encouraging!