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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Things you are not supposed to do as a woman ...

149 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 21/10/2016 07:42

... but (still) do anyway (?)

A few random thoughts inspired this thread. Elsewhere on MN there is a thread about going into a pub / bar alone (as a woman) and I was surprised at the number of women who said that they didn't do this, either because of fear of harassment or because it's just not done for women to do this.

Nearly two decades ago I was meeting colleagues before a work dinner at Pub X. I assumed that meant IN Pub X. The first to turn up waited outside for the second to turn up and when both came in they were surprised to see me sitting there with a beer. Conversation ensued about;

  1. Women going into pubs alone
  2. Drinking alone (anywhere)

I learned that these were not acceptable for a woman. Oddly, these women were both academic feminists. They were my superiors, so I didn't say anything other than 'it was cold out and I wanted a seat'.

For a while, I felt a bit odd about going into pubs alone (and ordering a pint or two). But I gradually started doing it again and didn't think oddly of it again until I read that post.

Then I read the Grayson Perry post and the article in the Telegraph. I thought it good, but was also intrigued about how he monitored other men so that he knew what masculinity was. It struck me that I have simply never done this with women / femininity.

Thus, I've been told from time-to-time that I do things that are not expected of women, such as liking whisky, travelling alone, etc.

I was wondering what other women here have always done, but have been told that they should not, as a woman? Are there any interesting stories about how women found out they were breaking gender rules? Did anyone stop doing things because they were told it was unacceptable? Is there anything women want to do but are too inhibited to do for fear of breaking gender rules?

OP posts:
BeetlebumShesAGun · 21/10/2016 09:40

First time I met my now DH's parents we went to the pub with DH's 18 year old sister. We ordered drinks. FIL and DH came back with pints for themselves, me and a half for SIL. When my pint was put in front of me she said "I'm so jealous I would love a pint but dad won't let me because I'm a girl". DH later explained his dad had tried to order me a half but he intervened!

My dad on the other hand refuses to order me a half as he can't be bothered to go up to the bar again!

In addition to this, while in the pub, going to the bar to order drinks. My uncle had a fabulous girlfriend years ago who was a strong feminist that i really looked up to. She was totally in charge of the relationship but she never went to the bar, as that was my uncle's job Confused

NotCitrus · 21/10/2016 09:42

Drinking whisky.

More oddly, shortly after getting together with MrNC he said I was the only woman who had ever put her tongue in his mouth when snogging. I'd always just copied what male partners did but apparently women generally just let men in, as it were.

'Letting' MrNC do the laundry, especially my clothes, is apparently wothry of comment...

ImogenTubbs · 21/10/2016 09:42

My dad is a classic gentleman. When growing up I learned good manners from him, so I commonly hold the door for people, offer them seats, help people with buggies on the tube or offer to carry heavy bags for people.

I have been sneered at quite a few times in my life as these are apparently things that men do for women and somehow I undermine (some) men by doing them. I still find this confusing.

On the other had my mum is hugely successful and competent so it has also never occurred to me that I can't do whatever I want or need to do in life, including driving a transit van when I moved house, travelling alone, going to cinema and pub alone, doing DIY or moving furniture, having a career, an opinion, and swearing (on occasion). All these things have been commented on at various times as being unfeminine.

I am thankful that both my parents are such awesome role models.

TheSnorkMaidenReturns · 21/10/2016 09:44

Debating current affairs/politics with men as equals.

yesterdaysunshine · 21/10/2016 09:44

I think the 'alone' thing is more that it's not seen as quite acceptable to do many things alone.

In the summer of 2013 if anyone remembers we had a heatwave and I took my kindle and sat by the river in a park reading it.

I heard someone say 'ssh, people are READING' in a piss-takey way and I have to admit I looked up and not one other person was on their own. Park was filled though.

I know these threads come up on MN - eating, drinking, holidaying alone, but I just don't ever see it. I don't think there's anything wrong with it but I feel self conscious.

Fantome · 21/10/2016 09:47

I go to my local pub with my parents sometimes and luckily regularly see women coming in alone, groups of women drinking pints etc, no-one thinks anything of it. Though it is owned by two sisters which is another bonus! When I'm old enough to get served I'd definitely have no worries going alone.

One thing it seems to me women aren't supposed to do is keep our surnames if we get married, or, horror, the man take ours. A boy once said to me "when I get married if she doesn't want to change her name the wedding would be off, no question". This really gets to me, why is it still so accepted women change our names when we marry? Or even in the rare times we don't the children get the man's surname? If I get married and he won't take my surname, any children will definitely have my surname, I'd have given birth to them, I'm not doing that to have his name tagged on. What amazes me is even otherwise feminist women seem to do it without question, like my mum. I don't judge women for it but I can't see how it's not totally sexist for it to be so expected/accepted.

Fantome · 21/10/2016 09:47

(I'm not sure that's the kind of thing this thread was for so sorry if not, but I got to vent).

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/10/2016 09:50

I have never been told by anyone that I'm not supposed to do any of the things people are mentioning. Also never experienced any of the funny looks etc.

MostlyHet · 21/10/2016 09:53

Going to new countries without accommodation booked and just winging it when I show up in a strange city.
Having a drink in a pub on my own.
Having a drink in a pub with a baby in a pram because he'd conveniently fallen asleep and I wanted half an hour of peace and quiet to read the newspaper.
Drinking pints.
Doing free weights in the gym.
Having dinner on my own in a restaurant when on business.
(I'm with Lass on the whisky thing - treating myself to a single malt in the lounge car of the Inverness to London sleeper as I watched the landscape slide by).

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/10/2016 09:53

I heard someone say 'ssh, people are READING' in a piss-takey way and I have to admit I looked up and not one other person was on their own. Park was filled though

Why assume it was "piss takey" ? I would have said the same to any small children I was in charge of if they were likely to disturb a person reading , man or woman.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 21/10/2016 09:55

I'm with Lass on the whisky thing - treating myself to a single malt in the lounge car of the Inverness to London sleeper as I watched the landscape slide by)

Done that Edinburgh to London sleeper !

MostlyHet · 21/10/2016 09:56

I know what you mean about the occasions when you don't get funny looks, Lass. I think there's maybe a certain degree of internal policing and other people often aren't as bothered as we might think. I was (as far as I'm aware) the only woman to use the free weights room in the university gym when I was a grad student. The men never batted an eyelid. It was actually one of the least threatening environments I've ever been in - everyone went in there, maybe acknowledged one another with a nod of the head, and quietly got on with lifting weights.

Mind you, there are times when people have definitely given me a funny look for ordering a pint, or commented on "how brave" I am for sitting in a restaurant on my own.

Kidnapped · 21/10/2016 09:57

Wearing trousers to formal occasions
Giving DD my surname
Taking the biggest piece of cake/pie in, ahem, 'mixed company'
Going grey and not hiding it
Not getting married (every proper woman's dream apparently)
Run and walk alone in the dark (was a thread the other day)

yesterdaysunshine · 21/10/2016 09:58

It was piss takey :) I was there!

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 21/10/2016 09:58

The amount of trolls of a male persuasion who come on here and tut and ooh and ahh and how they'd be ashamed if their mother/sister swore like us and how unlady-like it is Hmm

Fuck off, I'll swear if I twatting want to and if that means, God forbid, I don't appear ladylike to a misogynist like you then all the better!

MarklahMarklah · 21/10/2016 10:02

Doing weights at the gym (years ago)
Walking home at night
Whistling
Liking certain bands (!)

ImogenTubbs · 21/10/2016 10:02

Lass - that's fantastic that you've never experienced that kind of prejudice. I am always encouraged when I hear that. Long may it continue!!!

MrsJayy · 21/10/2016 10:04

Mum used to tell me drinking out of fizzy drinks cans was unlady like and burbing . Lager was for men women buying rounds was frowned upon in mixed company . Im such a dissapointment to my parents. I offended my dad the other year on holiday i paid for the table of drinks at dinner did i not want to wait for Dh to come back Confused

Kalqkra · 21/10/2016 10:04

Sitting or lounging with your legs apart, as if by doing so we are suddenly rendering our clothes invisible and displaying our naked vulvas to the world.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 21/10/2016 10:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kidnapped · 21/10/2016 10:09

Physical jobs in the garden but pissing about with secateurs is okay
Using large tools in general (hedgetrimmer, chainsaw)
Washing the cars

ErrolTheDragon · 21/10/2016 10:12

Fantome, yes, thats still a social norm though less so, to some extent a generational thing. I'm 55 and at that point academic/professional women might take their DHs name for 'social' purposes but keep their own for professional use (Mrs X == Dr Y). I can't see young women like you or my DD accepting this compromise nowadays - probably a question to raise early in a relationship as a sexism filter.

Lass - I think some of us somehow exude a little more assertiveness or confidence and so don't get some of this shit.

I only remember once any particular notice when traveling alone and eating in a hotel restaurant- a couple of older women invited me to join them for coffee and remarked how 'brave' I was. They meant well, and I hope I updated them a bit.

I would never order a pint because I'm a half-pint!Grinwhich is correlated to sex.

KnottyPineHell · 21/10/2016 10:15

Great thread!
My dad (I come from a conservative Asian family)wrote me a letter about a decade ago listing the thing I shouldn't do asa woman (letter was promoted by me trying to go NC with parents in my 20s) it made me really angry at the time but looking back, it was fucking hilarious as I had done all of the things already! From memory....
Having more than one alcoholic drink
Smoking
Going out without DP
Going out at night.

MrsJayy · 21/10/2016 10:15

Oh god i could rant for hours about scify superheroes. I used to get teased for liking the xmen cartoons as a kid my parents didnt take me to se Star wars cos that was for boys my aunt took me with my cousin. Now my 18 and 23 yr old girls go to comic con, wear bat man t shirts watch star wars and Batman andxmen and read graphic novels etc etc . I actually have the rage now thinking of the stuff i couldnt do because I was a girl.

reallyanotherone · 21/10/2016 10:15

I started at 6th form college in the 90's.

Walked into a full physics a'level class of 30 odd 16 year olds, to find i was the only female there.

Up until that point it had totally passed me by that girls weren't supposed to do maths and science. That was not a fun 2 years.