Do women use certain terms to 'shame' certain types of men?

[Enzouk]

Just wondering about female perspectives on this. I increasingly hear women calling guys 'creepy' as a shaming tactic..generally I think that the women doing so do it only if they don't find the man attractive. Where as they will pander to a guy who is physically attractive to thrm they will hate on a guy who acts the exact same way who physically is not attractive to them. I have seen women do it in front of groups of friends in a sort of 'lets put this guy in his place' way. Thoughts? And what do you think of women who do this?

Also, i suppose on similar lines...are women more shallow than men with regards to physical attraction?

Women say that kind of thing to spare people's feelings.

It's like when male celebs are asked what they find attractive in a woman. They say things like confidence, or a woman comfortable being herself.

It's all a load of bollocks.

I don't get this nice guy thing anyway. The overwhelming majority of people, are, on the surface, nice. That's because we don't live in a dystopian nightmare. Whether or not someone is nice is such a basic standard that it is not something to recommend a person. It's like having a preference for people who wash.

In general, unless a man is exceptionally good looking, most women do not want to be approached at all, ever, by men they don't know. It is almost always creepy.

That tinder experiment IS pretty sad, because it's sad to see what some women will put up with from a man, for any one of a huge number of reasons which include looks but will also include if he's evidently rich (stick an 'ugly' guy who was just all over the papers for winning £30 million on the lottery and see what he can get away with asking for), persistent enough etc. It's not right but some women are conditioned to think if a man fits a certain criteria, not only looks, certain behaviour is acceptable.

Nothing to do with being deliberately mean to ugly men though!

Calmerllama...is it conditioning or just their shallowness? (Or biological desire to say screw it i want his genes). I do think there is a common shaming of less attractive men though by women ehich goes back to what this thread was all about... Look at the viral things where women make a big deal out of screenshotting something 'creepy' a guy has said and posting it online...the commom denominator is that the guy isn't good looking. If he's 6 foot 3 with dark hair then she's quietly messaging him back and not publicly shsming the guy. Same thing i mentioned in bars...an ugly or even average guy can be mocked for approaching in the same way that a 'hotter' guy did who was welcomed. I suppose many women may not understand just how much courage it may have taken for that guy to makehis approach.

Almondpudding, good points again. You're very honest. I wish more women would be.

When do you want women to be honest?

Not when they're approached, presumably, because you want them to pretend not to have negative feelings about being approached by some random guy.

Like most things it depends on your viewpoint - is someone who reports a benefit cheat (just to use a totally different example) being a responsible citizen, are they protecting their income, are they trying to stir up trouble for a neighbour, or are they jealous of the other person's money? All depends on how you see it.

Same with this, you see women shaming a man for not being good looking enough to quietly get away with 'trying his luck', I see women sharing an experience of yet again being harrassed by a man because he thought he was entitled to 'try his luck' by virtue of them being a woman and him being a man. Depends on perspective, only mine is supported by centuries of patriarchy and facts such as my probability of being sexually harrassed or assaulted any given day compared to a man's.

Maybe men should just stop trying their luck? Either a woman isn't interested in them, in which case don't bother, or she is and she'll have to make the effort. You seem to be generalising women into a Tinder-esque idea that all they want is someone good looking and will disregard personality in favour of looks. Just have a look at how many oddly matched couples there are to see that's not real life.

Almond pudding...honest about looks being number 1 for attraction. Honest about 'creepyness' only applying to people who are less attractive than a certain threshold.

It's not about having negative feelings abiut sime random guy approaching...its about not being plain rude to said random guy.

I'd be quite intetested to know how many people meet their partners through mutual activities actually.

I met my DH through a mutual activity, and knew him for quite some time before getting into any sort of relationship. I expect you wouldn't class him as 'good looking' yet strangely he didn't need to be creepy to not only get female interest but actually get married (and TMI but also have regular sex) - oddly treating women as people rather than conquests can actually work! However he completely throws your logic out, he was depressed when he was single and now he's married and happy in a relationship he still struggles daily with depression. How does that work then? Do men perhaps have other feelings than wanting their end away?

The fact is women these days do not necessarily reject average guys as creepy but are receptive to good looking guys automatically, DD and her friends are hit on lots, she can spot what she calls a Fuck Boy a million miles away, Fuck Boys are just creepy good lookers after a shag.

And guess what, Tinder is used by all my DDs student friends, male and female as a jokey entertainment app. So Studies as far as I am concerned are pointless.

But your example is not about looks being number one. Most women, apart from in fantasy, have no expectation whatsoever that they are ever going to come into contact with someone as ridiculously good looking as the male model from Call Me Maybe.

People in general look for a combination of looks and personality. They generally meet partners through mutual friends, work or interests. They do not generally pick each other up in bars and clubs, and in those situations, they're unlikely to be able to work out much about someone's personality anyway.

And Creepiness does not only apply below a certain standard.

Are you saying that men never "shame" women they find unattractive? Really? It's the stuff of stand up comedy - "I don't fancy yours much" "You don't sweat much for a fat lass"

And a significant number of American men currently seem to be taking "Look at her!" as a perfectly acceptable defence from a accusation of sexual assault.......

I went to bed only to come back to find that women are to blame for male suicides now. And the op wonders why he's coming across as creepy????

Hilarious, OP, you must have been up way past your bedtime. The delicious irony of you fronting up into a space where women are talking amongst themselves and demanding to know why women aren't always thrilled when men front up to a space where they're talking amongst themselves. Arf!

"Women, be honest!"
Women are honest.
"You're wrong and here's why!"

I think you might get closer to understanding why women's "shallowness" upsets you so much if you did some exploration into why you don't like women very much. It shines through from your posts. Start there, grasshopper, and all will become clear.

OP a lot of what you say is backed up by psychology. We will judge a person's intentions on looks as well as other things.

OP I would like to thank you for reminding me why I no longer speak to my father. It's like having a discussion with jelly. Jelly that scolds you like an errant child for failing to cede the argument to the mighty weight of male opinion and also scolds you for taking the conversation away from a pre-defined set of parameters that only he has seen the rule book for), yet himself insists on bringing in extremely random supporting arguments while dismissing all others as "off topic".

Enzouk, i will engage with you and try to make some stuff clearer for you from a woman's perspective.

Firstly though I've never seen a group of women shame a regular nice guy who was polite and respectful by calling him "creepy" I must mix in different circles.

I have however heard women describe men as creepy behind their back.

So not having witnessed the situation I can only speculate from my experience of being a woman in general.

Here goes...

• Of course attractive men garner a more favourable reaction. That's pretty basic. Unattractive women pursuing men are likewise far more likely to be described as bunny boilers etc by men than good looking women.

• Men experience rejection more than women because our social norms dictate that women don't make the first move and shames women who do. As a PP said a woman usually has to be pretty gorgeous to have the confidence to approach a group of men.

-Unattractive men need to accept that they will not garner as favourable a response especially in nightclub/tinder situations where looks are pretty much all you are judging people on.

-On that note are these friends of yours approaching women who are lookswise "out of their league"? If so they are practising discrimination off the bat and need to go for women who are their equal in terms of attractiveness.

• if an unattractive woman complained to you that it isn't fair that she wasn't getting as much attention as her more attractive friend the immediate response would be "duh! Biology 101".

• your idea that women have an easier time dating online / in clubs is way off for two reasons:

-- you're focusing on good-looking women and the power they have. The majority of women are not good looking and as I've said before they are ignored off the bat.

You don't hear these women complain as much because protocol dictates they don't put themselves out there to get rejected. Also the popular idea that any woman can get any man she wants embarrasses and silenced those women for whom this is not the case (the majority of us). So they keep quiet about it but they are there in their millions, dieting, feeling shit and unloved just like your mates.

-- when you assume that these women can get what they want easily you are talking about sex. I'm not denying that there are many women who want just sex but in general women (either for biological or social reasons - a whole other debate!) are after a relationship. So it's not the win-win situation for women that you think it is.

Which brings me to the crucial bit and the part that MOST men seem to miss. That Tinder link. It was all about men wanting sex. You pity your friends because they've gone years without sex. The talk on that link was talking about women only in terms of sex.

Yes of course women want be seen as sexy (by the man they like) but they don't want to be seen as just that. We're not holes. We're people. We want to be appreciated for our traits other than how hot we are. That has been our struggle for millenia.

I suspect that is fundamentally your mates' problem. These women sense that they are approaching them with a view to "get lucky" and they are correct given the language of your posts and the article you linked to. That is the behaviour they find "creepy" and rightly so.

• If your mates are approaching women on the basis of something as shallow as sex and "getting lucky" then they must be prepared to be rejected on the equally shallow basis of physical attractiveness.

• As for the "As if" girls that you talk about, remember that in the whole dating paradigm the only power a woman has is to reject. Her ability to physically attract men lies largely out of her control. Her ability to approach men she finds attractive is circumscribed by society. The only time she can exercise her power is in rejecting. And sometimes it doesn't work even then.

HTH

PS. Statistically women experience depression and attempt suicide more than men. Men however are more successful at it because they are are likely to use more lethal methods such as guns/hanging.

As a PP said macho culture (not feminism or women in general) has a lot to blame for men's suicide rates. Macho culture has such high expectations for men: strength, financial and sexual success, independence and dominance that it is not surprising so many men feel a failure or that higher suicide rates are found amongst homosexual men.

And LASTLY as feminism is dedicated to dismantling both macho culture and women's sexual restrictions which will lead to less suicide and dating rejection for men, I suggest you become a feminist quick sharp

Basically this thread can be summed up as:

Male OP: women call men creeps based on the men's appearance.

Women on thread: no, we call them creeps based on their behaviour.

Male OP:I'm right, you're wrong, and I will continue to invade your space by shouting this while talking about you being bitchy and nasty and having chips on your shoulders for the next ten pages.

Enzo Could what you are describing be this.......some people exaggerate stuff so much that it has almost become normal. Normal things are blown out of proportion. We all do it. I am trying to do it less. I catch myself using over used terms and it's easy to follow the herd in this. The weather man describing a weather front as giving a 'glancing blow' to the west coast of Scotland - umm no it doesn't, the weather front merely moves over the land as normal. Newspapers describe the land as being 'braced for freezing conditions' that is apparently going to last eight weeks. Umm nobody I know is braced and no, it won't last that long and it won't be freezing either!

I have two co-workers and they both exaggerate every single thing they speak of. They are permanently affronted at the way they have been spoken to when a conversation has taken place that was totally normal in my opinion. They use over grand gestures and everything they speak of is over dramatised to such a degree, it's hard to understand them most of the time and exhausting too. I find this occurs in daily life a lot more nowadays. It has crept upon the land and is so bad it's funny and appalling in equal measure really. My DH and I make sport of picking these out of news bulletins and headlines on the internet. Overused terms like 'Brothers In Arms', 'A Perfect Storm', 'Up Close And Personal' blah blah blah. It's all meaningless over exaggeration and there's a constant feed of it once you cop on and see it for what it is. For a woman in a social situation to describe a bloke as creepy may be merely part of this only and not a woman/man thing at all? Only yesterday I asked someone to move their car off my drive. He flatly refused. I had to call a PCSO and all I had done was ask him to move it and he refused. That was the end of the conversation. The man told the PCSO that I had threatened to scrap his car!! Umm no I didn't and it would not be possible without his having signed the V5 and made a tick in the appropriate box now would it ?

My DH who is a bearded thing built like a massive cube started doing that hand flapping thing for a bit. I gave him a steely side glance and said, 'Don't do that thing, you look like a penguin having a seizure' (because he did). I wanted to add, 'Or I will kill you' but I didn't as I would have been as bad as everyone else!

I suspect what you are seeing is merely this. Men are as bad as women, most of us are doing it as we pick up on cues from our lives, it ain't pretty but it is happening.

And he is built like a massive cube. No exaggeration

I ypu have not given me any back up of your "facts" about male suicide rates, OP. I'll give you some back up for mine:

www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/21/suicide-gender-men-women-mental-health-nick-clegg#img-1

So women actually were found to attempt suicide more than men, but more men died as a result of their attempt. ballpark further up tells you more about what this means.

Almond Pudding, good points again. You're very honest. I wish more women would be

This guy just hates women. That's why he started this thread on this board to have women biting back.

Pathetic really. Clearly has mummy issues

Ten pages of moaning that women judge men on looks? Oh my aching sides.

Men put looks higher up their list than women do in every measurable situation.

Men who say 'it's not fair, women don't want me because I'm not good looking enough' almost always mean 'it's not fair, thin, tanned women ten years younger than me don't want me because I'm not good looking enough'.

I also want to know more about what this "public shaming" of these poor men entails. Are they paraded through the streets like in Game of Thrones? What's the minimum a woman needs to give in her respomse for it to not be a public shaming? I expect you think ignoring the guy or a blank "no" is rude.

marble 'SHAME! SHAME!'

I met my partner through a mutual love of motorbikes but where friends for a long time before we got together. He isnt conventionally good looking (think harley rider) but i fell for his personallity as i got to know him and looks become less of a thing. Im no oil painting myself.

As for women shaming men I am the only woman in my job and can say that all the guys i work with seem to do is talk about women like they are slabs of meat or share pictures of women they deem to be ugly and laugh about them. So you get those type of people on both sides.

Men who say 'it's not fair, women don't want me because I'm not good looking enough' almost always mean 'it's not fair, thin, tanned women ten years younger than me don't want me because I'm not good looking enough'.

This