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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans in children's and young people's services

474 replies

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 14:58

OK … I can’t hold this in any longer. I went searching for a safe space to talk about trans issues and I found you guys (as per a previous post). I’m really hoping that you won’t think I’m stirring the trans pot for the sake of it. I really do have concerns.

I teach people who will one day, amongst other roles, work with boys, girls, young women, young men, parents and others in a range of ‘social care’ roles. This includes child and youth services and protection. In both my teaching, and the broader sector of practice that I prepare people to work in, I am facing a wall of ignorant, unthinking, militant trans orthodoxy, or a general fear of challenging this, or downright don’t-give-a rat’s-ism. The kinds of things that I hear people (and these are people with power as teachers, workers and even policy-makers) say uncritically (and as if they were droning a script) are:

  • trans children have the brains of the opposite gender
  • children should not need court consent, counselling or parental permission to have puberty blockers or hormonal drugs
  • if a child wants to access PB’s or other hormonal drugs and the parents object, it should become a child-protection matter
  • children should be watched for gender variant behaviour
  • children should learn about trans from an early age
  • all school toilets should be gender-neutral
  • boys / men should be allowed into women’s / girls’ facilities if they say they are girls. Girls should not object.
  • single-sex residential care homes (for girls, often those who have been sexually abused) should accept males who say they are female (even though we know there are high levels of sexual abuse in care homes)
  • terms such a ‘women’ or ‘girls’ should be changes to ‘people who identify as …’

Beyond this, I have the following experiences:

  • teaching a small but significant number of males who identify as ‘queer’, ‘trans’ or ‘female’ who have made it clear that they are entering the area to ‘save’ trans children from not being able to transition
  • being told by management that the official position is ‘pro-trans’
  • being told by some students that I am transphobic if I mention ‘women’. One was a ‘trans’ male who dressed in leather and studs and wore shirts with violent imagery and slogans.
  • having colleagues tell me that they think the orthodoxy is rubbish, but being afraid to speak out (as am I)
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and told that we must use ‘persons who identify as …’ instead of ‘women’ or ‘men’
  • being in a meeting of practitioners and being shown a ‘trans-positive’ manual that advises that trans boys be allowed into girls’ spaces (camps, homes, detention facilities, etc.)
  • raising an actual instance of harassment of a young lesbian by a trans man and general instances of lesbians being denied lesbian-spaces to be told that ‘trans comes first because they are so oppressed’.

This does not happen all the time, and nor is it ‘me against the world’, but it is prevalent enough to concern me and make me feel marginalised and silenced.

The reason I am writing this, apart from to get it off my chest and hopefully find some people who don’t think I am nuts for questioning it, is that I don’t think this is spoken of much (i.e. institutional responses to trans issues). Plus, these people have power over the lives of individuals, and some have the ears of policy-makers. Some make policies for organisations. This isn’t stuff happening on social media – it’s real – and to me it is terrifying because it can lead to the abuse of children, whether they be ‘trans’ kids or girls.

We don’t know the long-term effects of a set of drugs (PB’s) that were developed as an emergency measure to allow the treatment of some childhood cancers. We don’t really know much about child-transitioners. We don’t know much about the long term effects of hormone therapies on children’s bodies. Yet, we have generally moved away from a treatment regime that saw medical and surgical interventions as the last means to the first. Counselling and other therapies have fallen out of favour – and indeed are seen as ‘oppressive’ by some. This has all happened so fast that we don’t really know much at all, beyond isolated and mostly non-longitudinal studies. We know that some variants of ‘the pill’ have had detrimental effects, as has HRT – why are people naïve enough to think that hormonal treatments on young children are going to be magically better?

The issue of boys in girls’ and women’s spaces has been spoken of here, but I worry for girls who have no (or inadequate) parents to care for them or look after them, such as those in justice centres or care homes. These are vulnerable children.

Honestly, I know that many of us are wondering when this trans rubbish will dissipate, but I can’t help thinking that it might take a class-action of young people with cancers or a girls or two to be raped / murdered by a male claiming to be ‘trans’ for this to happen.

OP posts:
WankingMonkey · 04/10/2016 18:13

How many trans people do you actually know?!?

I know 2. Both post op transwomen. Who do not think they actually are women. Who understand why 'biological women' do not see them as the same and respect that. But still manage to live pretty decent (looking in anyway, not sure whats going on behind closed doors, as in every case) happy lives. Who respect those around them and as such are afforded the same respect back...are looked upon as 'one of the girls' in friendship groups. But still realise they are not actually women. I guess these people would also be known as tru-scum to some. Rather than realistic.

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 04/10/2016 18:14

If more transwomen were like Miranda Yardley, women would have a lot less to worry about.

WankingMonkey · 04/10/2016 18:15

Also something interesting to note, and I am not sure if this is backed up by science or not but this is just something I remembered just now. One of the transwomen I know reckons her doctor informed her that estrogen, when given to males, has an anti-depressant effect. Which could also go towards explaining why so many feel so different once hormones are started...

ATransMum · 04/10/2016 18:15

Body dysphoria and gender dysphoria are not 'similar' conditions. Just because they end with the same word does not mean they are the same thing. Nor is anorexia.

This is why getting being transgender out of the mental health section is massively important for trans people (and accepted, by the way, by the World Health Organisation for ICD-11, which will hopefully ripple down to DSM-6).

Gender Incongruence is the new term you should be fighting against :)

And I do recognise that being trans might not be the only thing wrong with a child. And dealing with other comorbid conditions and/or sexuality issues is key - it's not a magical potion ffs.

WankingMonkey · 04/10/2016 18:17

Body dysphoria and gender dysphoria are not 'similar' conditions

Can you explain why you think this? I can't understand that at all. BDD is hating perfectly healthy body parts, seeing yourself as 'wrong', being distressed by your appearance to the point where it affects your life. Deeply distressed just seeing a mirror. etc etc. Feeling the need for unnecessary surgeries to make yourself 'right'

How is this, different from sex-dysphoria?

SomeDyke · 04/10/2016 18:18

"There is proven efficacy across a variety of studies.."
Not according to the academic literature.........

"The people who detransition do it for two main reasons:..."
Or you could go and actually read what some say......(there have been several links to F2M de-transitioner info on MN).

"Or you can try and 'pray the trans away'," I don't think any of the feminists on here are suggesting that, and this is particularly insulting given the reaction of the religious right to gay and lesbian people. But hey, you'd be the real expert on that given the small amount of time you've spent transitioning (compared to the large amount of time, by your own admission, that you spent as a married man with kids). You haven't been in the LGBT 'bubble' that long, frankly!

"Do you honestly think WPATH and other organisations are carrying out a massive medical experiment on trans people?" Yes, and wouldn't be the first time as you would know if you knew anything about the history of gay and lesbian people and the medical 'profession'.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 04/10/2016 18:36

There are two transwomen in my circle. One is an old-fashioned SRS transsexual. The other is a classic selfish late-transitioning SoB. Dumped his wife and 3 kids in middle age to focus on his manicure. The first is popular. The second appears to be friendless. Family report that despite 10 years as a woman no partner has emerged, not even dates. His ex, however, has remarried happily, which she richly deserves. I find it impossible to refer to this guy as "her" because I've known him since he was a kid and he looks exactly the same from the back now as he ever did. Very tall, broad shoulders, narrow hips. His older sisters were stunningly beautiful and I'm sure this is relevant. A lot of transwomen express envy of women, think we have it easy. Just like MRAs.

The first transwoman doesn't care about misgendering. A lot of my friends have known him for 10 years or more and I've heard them slip up and use his old name. He laughs at their apologies. Mind you, his name is very tongue in cheek. It's not Rose Bud but it's just as corny. There's a lot of sympathy for how appallingly he suffered having SRS.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 04/10/2016 18:43

I just find some of atm's posts rude, lecturing and dismissive of anyone else

I have given up on them really

Although still impressed by the persistence

ATransMum · 04/10/2016 18:50

Ah, basing your assumption about trans people on two of them, both very different. And casually misgendering both of them in the process. An excellent way to draw conclusions about an entire culture.

They might not show that they care about misgendering and laugh it off. But have you asked how they really feel about it? After 10 years I'd expect people to be getting it right.

Next up 'I'm not homophobic, I've got a gay friend'.

And I love how trans women are being compared to MRA's. Because you know, we hate feminism and all that it represents. Seriously.

ATransMum · 04/10/2016 18:53

*Body dysphoria and gender dysphoria are not 'similar' conditions

Can you explain why you think this?*

Actually I quoted that wrong.

It's Body Dysmorphia and Gender Dysphoria.

Not even the same word!

My bad :)

WinchesterWoman · 04/10/2016 18:53

They're terribly mansplainy and don't make any sense.

For example the denial that transwomen won't accept they aren't women. Well what have you been doing the last week ATM except trying to convince us they are? All your posts are desperate essays to try to disprove women = adult human female, of the sex that produces eggs and can bear young - and we're still reading the same old justifications that have been rebutted about 200 times. None of it makes sense - it's bizarre.

SomeDyke · 04/10/2016 18:58

"Body dysphoria and gender dysphoria are not 'similar' conditions"
I would have thought that with not just plain ole dysphoria, but the full-on, I want me left leg off above the knee thing, there are possibly links. After all, we have at least one case of co-occurence.

And seems like Anne Lawrence thinks there are possible links too:
www.annelawrence.com/amputation-GID.pdf

But then Anne is an 'old-fashioned' autogynephilic transsexual. Oh, and anyone who has doubts as regards the target location error stuff and sexual attractions of amputees hasn't spent enough time reading gay male personal ads (where some of the chaps can be extremely specific as to exactly what they are looking for! Not as weird as the chaps who like corduroy or cigars though -- okay, just came across the Homo Humidor, which is a great name! Dykes don't often seem to share these specialist interests in my experience, leather doesn't count really, that is way too main stream! Smile)

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 04/10/2016 19:04

Next up 'I'm not homophobic, I've got a gay friend.

I'm a lesbian and I think the pressure on us to be open to relationships with males is as homophobic as it gets.

As an example (and there are plenty of them), where were all these supportive feminist transpeople when Ada Wells at Edinburgh Uni was promoting rape culture, talking about getting lesbians expelled for being homosexual? They definitely weren't supporting the women.

The organisations which are theoretically there to support "LGBT" have all now thrown the L under the T bus. I would happily support safe spaces for transwomen & fight trans discrimination. I have done. But not at women's expense.

SomeDyke · 04/10/2016 19:05

"Next up 'I'm not homophobic, I've got a gay friend'."

Hey, let's appropriate homophobia now as well..................Seen that one before!

Is anyone else playing bingo?

FreshwaterSelkie · 04/10/2016 19:09

I think you're having the opposite effect to the one you think you're having, ATM. But do crack on with...whatever it is you're doing. Shouting at women and telling them they don't understand science is extremely feminine and don't you let anyone tell you otherwise.

(I note with interest that you have nothing to say about my previous post about how campaigning for "awareness" of gender non conformity as the cause of suicide tends on the whole to increase suicide and attempted suicide rather than prevent it. I don't expect you to give one inch on your stance though, because the second you do, it all falls to pieces).

FreshwaterSelkie · 04/10/2016 19:15

Anyway, I thought trans women were women? So why would women need to know a transwoman to understand transwomen, when we're all just girls together, and we have the same brain, and the same experiences?

If not, why not? No, I'm sure it doesn't work like that because...reasons.

MatildaOfTuscany · 04/10/2016 19:16

I'm moderately curious to know what ATM's scientific background is...

But not that curious. All I'm really seeing is someone on a soapbox yelling "listen to me! ME! ME! I know more about being a woman than anyone else here. I know more about homophobia than the lesbians on this thread. I know more about science than the professional research scientists on this thread. I get to say what you can and can't talk about. ME ME ME ME ME."

ATransMum · 04/10/2016 19:23

I'm a lesbian and I think the pressure on us to be open to relationships with males is as homophobic as it gets.

Trans women aren't male. But if you don't want to date one that's not a problem with me, never has been. I've been hit on by some lesbians, had others tell me they aren't into trans women.

As an example (and there are plenty of them), where were all these supportive feminist transpeople when Ada Wells at Edinburgh Uni was promoting rape culture, talking about getting lesbians expelled for being homosexual? They definitely weren't supporting the women.

Edinburgh is a little far for me. But I'm doing International Women's day with colleagues next year. I support plenty of other feminist organisations and rallies, as do lots of my trans friends. In fact feminism tends to attract a lot of trans people as we can all relate to equality.

I'm not shouting, merely defending myself when attacked for lots of directions. And trying to get back on point at times.

And sorry if I can't answer all your questions - I do have a job, life etc.

ATransMum · 04/10/2016 19:27

I know more about being a woman than anyone else here.

Never claimed that. In fact said the opposite.

I know more about homophobia than the lesbians on this thread.

Nope, never claimed that either. I do know about homophobia (I'm a Hate Crime Champion where I live)

I know more about science than the professional research scientists on this thread.

Nope again. I understand scientific method. And quoted a few research papers.

I get to say what you can and can't talk about.

Hmm, I've said 'let's avoid John Hopkins and Paul McHugh'. So partially guilty of that. Not that it worked.

Yup, totally Me Me Me.

Create standpoint, get attacked, defend standpoint, cite examples, adjust standpoint if foundation crumbles. Isn't that how debate works? Or am I supposed to yell at people and insult them?

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 04/10/2016 19:30

I'm doing International Women's day with colleagues next year. I support plenty of other feminist organisations and rallies, as do lots of my trans friends. In fact feminism tends to attract a lot of trans people as we can all relate to equality.

And while you're supporting women, do you respect their right to their own identity as adult human females, and to sex-segregated space where it's required?

WankingMonkey · 04/10/2016 19:35

Trans women aren't male.

They are though. They may not want to be. They may not think they are. They may do everything possible to try and change it (in some cases, other times everyone must just accept a female penis..). But they are still male. Except in the head...or 'gender'

SomeDyke · 04/10/2016 19:40

So, lesbians complain of homophobia. ATM says not my problem.

Women complain about rape culture. ATM says too far away. Not my problem.

"I do know about homophobia." How? Being a hate crime champion makes you magically know all about it? As opposed, say, to being a lesbian for many years and actually experiencing it? More appropriation! Or, as you keep saying, do you actually know many gay men or lesbians, how many years have you known them, have you actually reflected on how your (former) heterosexual privilege (given that you passed as a married heterosexual man for many years) means that your knowledge of homophobia is probably totally anecdotal..................

Nope, seems you prefer a shiny badge with 'Hate Crime Champion' on it..........

ATransMum · 04/10/2016 19:44

And while you're supporting women, do you respect their right to their own identity as adult human females, and to sex-segregated space where it's required?

If it was all so binary and simple would we be even having this conversation?

So many common goals and things we can achieve, but 'egg bearing potential' is the actual divisor.

'Egg-bearing-potential-separated spaces' - not quite the same ring is it?

ATransMum · 04/10/2016 19:49

So, lesbians complain of homophobia. ATM says not my problem.

Nope, never said that.

Women complain about rape culture. ATM says too far away. Not my problem.

I said Edinburgh is a bit far to travel for a protest. I've been to plenty in London. And I never said it wasn't my problem either!

"I do know about homophobia."

I've been bisexual my entire life thanks. And yes, biphobia has cross over with homophobia. But way to pass judgement.

Now I'm a trans woman who has dated women. So I've experienced homophobia. So what if it hasn't been for 20 years.

Nope, seems you prefer a shiny badge with 'Hate Crime Champion' on it..........

I like shiny badges. I even hand them out for blatantly misquoting me or constructing straw man arguments sometimes

kua · 04/10/2016 19:51

"Egg-bearing-potential-separated spaces' - not quite the same ring is it?"

We already have the word female to denote this. Women =adult female. It really is that simple and I'm glad you have come to the same conclusion.