Yes, it is another trans thread - attempted murderer Lauren Jeska

[PippaFawcett]

Absolutely no mention AT ALL in the BBC coverage that celebrated 'female' fell runner Lauren Jeska's reason for attempting to murder an athletic official is because she was discovered to be transgender and could have lost her titles, because obviously the women competing against her were at an unfair disadvantage.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-37439875

I was baffled at Jeska's motivation until I read the DM's version: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3801806/Former-fell-running-champion-Lauren-Jeska-admits-attempted-murder-former-rugby-player-Ralph-Knibbs.html#comments

Usual disclaimer that I have no issue with transgender people but this complete denial of the facts of biology does no-one any favours. And I presume this crime will go down as being perpetrated by a woman?

I agree and have thought this for a while.

Me too

There are trabswomen who extend compassion and consideration for women. Yardley being the obvious voice but there are others on Twitter I've read I'm sure. And tumble here. And posters on these threads occasionally you they have rl friend who are trans who are outraged at how TRA's are erasing women.

I maybe in the minority here bit other than for recording purposes or similar I don't see why we similar hold down a ermine for 'them'. Ultimately their experience is their issue as long as it's not encroaching on my experience and my terms (woman and female).I think they similarhpuldhpuld be ree to use their own terms. So transwoman, trasvestite, mtt as they prefer- as long ass it is different from my (our) terms. I asssppriciate in terms of discussing jeska etc that language can be manipulative asssppriciate it's important to use male, but also not to condem respecting the individuals who respect us. I feel only to aware my young children may have higher risk of gender dysphoria, having asd already, and while we are very relaxed about gender roles at home this still may lead to higher risk of gender dysphoria & I know I would be considerate of that. I guess I find it more disturbing that so many transactivists would want to scrub their entire life before transioning (especially being a male father) but I don't think anyone not living that will be the expert in what terms are right for them. Sad anyone feels they must have some term, but if they feel the need they should define that imo. As long anyonepriciate they don't define me.

It doesn't make sense to me that women are unhappy with men being referred to as women in relation to crimes, sports or bathrooms yet will acknowledge them as women here, on the basis that they seem nice. If someone acknowledges they are male I don't understand why we are referring to them as female when they're not.

Either we're ok with accepting and treating some men as women or we're not. Surely the deciding factor isn't whether they are nice.

Me too, I'm afraid.

This is to pickle really:

Someone like tumble, who is probably a very nice person, is definitely going to be able to capitalise on the laws if they change, whilst at exactly the same time, being able to disagree vehemently with the way the transactivists are effecting that change.

If more transsexuals with genuine gender dysphoria, who have no interest in claiming they are women or accessing women's spaces, stood up and said not in my name, we would have a lot more clout.

They want to be considered women, by women, whilst the same time ignoring the plight of women because it doesn't benefit them.

And that is the paradox for me.

Again, it's not personal. But if they want to remain passive and think this battle is not relevant to them, then I can think them irrelevant to this battle.

I think transpeople that are sympathetic to women have to understand that the gaslighting around language is part of the problem. No one should expect that.

Like I said not woman or female, I wouldn't term anyone trans that bit otherwuse their experience their words, as long as that recognises that their biology is different from mine/socialisation has been different from mine.

I feel it has been a liberty taken too far now. At one point women probably felt flattered that there are some men out there who despise their own male bodies and wish they were women and it was such a breath of fresh air from being viewed and treated as disgusting and inferior, so that welcoming these males in and playing along with the pretence of calling them 'she' and 'her' felt like a small price for that flattery. But it all looks very different now doesn't it? We are expected to say it was never a pretence.

There is absolutely no way of knowing who is a "genuine" transperson or who is not. They're not going to come on here and talk honestly about their fetish. I'm not calling a man with a dick a woman because he's not and I don't care how nice they apparently are. Dressing like a woman doesn't make them women.

There's more and more men coming on here saying they are women gaslighting us and dumping their problems into our lap. And as long as they're "nice" we accept them as women and discuss our personal issues and stories with them.

For me, there was the small possibility of nuance.

You can have one of three stances.
Transwomen are men
Transwoman are transwomen
Transwomen are women.

I will never accept the last one. I could be persuaded to accept the second one IF it meant they were completely separate in every respect.

However, that negotiation has been taken away. We are only left with the first or the last. And they are certainty not women.

Pronouns don't mean much in our house, my children all have asd & invert pronouns so I am allways him & their dad her so that doesn't mean much.

Duno tumble/Yardley/@streetvoiceuk don't seem to expect any pretense from us. & can't speak about anyone else. Tra's clearly don't grasp the understanding of biology so I wouldn't feel the need to prioritise their preferences, just don't feel I can complain against another group redefining my terms whilst doing the same to 'them'. So othere than recording etc I kinda think that's their experience. Like I said I expect to be in the minority with this.

Yes that's fine, wobbly. I understand your position. Other people are fed up with the gaslighting and emotional blackmail. My experience as a survivor of domestic violence and abuse makes me resist it, because it feels very similar.

Why is it one of three? Transvestites, transgender, mtt, transwoman, person with gebdt dysphoria && they can come up with other terms themselves if they like. As long as their terms don't over ride my experience of being female and being a woman that's up to them. For anything factual like crime stats male/female.

The point is that they can come up with whatever terms they like, other people don't have to use them.

I'm a survivor too, but the tra's feel similar, but I don't see yardley the same & I doubt Yardley is the only transperson who has recognition of women's boundaries & differing experience & needs

Oddsockspissmeoff, totally agree with you here:

It doesn't make sense to me that women are unhappy with men being referred to as women in relation to crimes, sports or bathrooms yet will acknowledge them as women here, on the basis that they seem nice. If someone acknowledges they are male I don't understand why we are referring to them as female when they're not.

Either we're ok with accepting and treating some men as women or we're not. Surely the deciding factor isn't whether they are nice.

Datun, also agree with this:
Someone like tumble, who is probably a very nice person, is definitely going to be able to capitalise on the laws if they change, whilst at exactly the same time, being able to disagree vehemently with the way the transactivists are effecting that change.

This is an excellent description of male privilege. That's how it works. Nice non violent men benefit from male violence and misogyny even if they don't agree with it. Them not agreeing with it whilst benefiting from it is no use to women.

Not saying they do, but I don't see why its our job to name transpeople either
Don't see the need past m/f who is trans either. Any other nuance is up to them imo.

Yes, and it's the whole problem that males both trans and not trans have with what Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie said. "I don't think I had any male privilege therefore I didn't". You did. You had it about things that you didn't even know were problems for women.

We have to call them something, don't we? And I don't want to be perpetuating something I believe to be wrong.

Just to be clear, I'm not calling 'nice' transwomen 'women'.

I want to refer respectfully to people who behave respectfully.

I want statistics recorded accurately, and I want trans ideology to stop erasing the identity of other people- women, gay children and trans people.

Spot on Beach.

Pronouns do matter and they matter a lot. It's contributed to us arriving here with the gender bill. How outraged we are that we're going to be legally forced to acknowledge men as women, yet we're doing it on here all the time when we refer to men as she and her. We're happy to play along on line yet we balk at the idea of showering with them.

I don't believe any of the male posters on here claiming to be women support us. I think they like banging their drum and being validated as women. I think they also enjoy hearing about personal female issues, something they wouldn't be privvy to if they weren't pretending to be women.

I just think it's such a typical 'female' things to fix things for others, to take on their 'job', to help give them their answers. Imo that's not my burden & I don't want to step into that role. I will defend by boundaries as a woman/female & fight any terheology that encroaches on that bit otherwise it's individual transpeoples problem to fix. I'm not using up my energy to provide a solution to someone else problem.

I don't see the need for the 'right' term past the person is male & is trans or female & is trans. If the person then self describes as transvestite or transgender or person with gender dysphoria that's up to them & I don't see why media etc couldnt just say male so & so says they are transvestite etc imo. I don't see why we should do other people's leg work for them.

Anyone who has gone about gender reassignment the old fashioned way, living as the opposite sex for two years, I will honour their choice of pronoun. They have 'walked the walk' as far as they are able, not just 'talked the talk'. I will accord them 'man' or 'woman' status, as a courtesy title.

Someone who pops on a frock from time to time - no.

I posted a while ago about my daughter's experience with a trans boy at school, and sometimes the dynamic on here really reminds me of that.

We say openly that we don't want them in our showers and competing in our sports. Then a man turns up claiming to be a woman and we backtrack and say oh no, we don't mean you. You're genuine. We discuss sexual assaults with them and thank them for their views and for understanding women. And we call them her and she. And we just lap up their bullshit about how they suffer male violence and discuss with them what it means to be a woman.

Why?

I agree with most of your post odd

I understand the she/her bit but i do struggle to write some sentences coherently using full names or they/them.

And misgendering equals deletion

I will try harder to get my wording right