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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Consquences of self-identification

1000 replies

MrsKCastle · 17/09/2016 14:37

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

OP posts:
BaronessEllaSaturday · 30/09/2016 15:02

although we would perhaps say that someones personality is in their nature I don't think it is natural. I do think that natural things can have a bearing on it ie any mental health issues but I do overall think that your personality is the result of the socialisation and parenting that you get when young.

ftw · 30/09/2016 15:05

If only people with penises can know what's it's like to feel like a woman, we all need to shut up and listen. We might learn something.

BiscuitBiscuitBiscuitBiscuitBiscuit

Confused
WankingMonkey · 30/09/2016 15:08

Wanking monkey it's a trick question. If you say personality is part of gender, and gender is 'nature' then you've said gender is nature, or gender is innate. You've been so nice, and sweet, and making the effort to listen, and you've been tricked in payment.

I don't see how any of this proves that men are/can be women though? I believe gender is personality (and socialization). I believe personality is nature but can be shaped by experiences. But I still believe gender and sex are different :S Unless I am missing the trick here..which is entirely possible.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 15:08

Grin wm - i gave up on sage out of ennui

Doesn't matter really if personality IS innate, nature, nurture, whatever - it doesn't mean there's such a thing as a brain sex or a marker for brain sex. Don't worry, if there was, it would be presented to us with a trumpet voluntary and a ticker parade.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 15:09

WM I agree with you for sure

HairyLittlePoet · 30/09/2016 15:10

There comes a point when I just want to close the virtual bathroom door on these men and stop talking to them. "Goodbye. This is not for you. You are not welcome"

Unfortunately this is the internet, and it is Mumsnet, and whilst it would be lovely if women could chat to each other in the feminism rights section without having some entitled dude barge in and demand we validate his womanliness, I am not Empress of this World, so bah.

What I can do is carry on chatting to the interesting women, and also to any blokes who have an interest in being our allies, and ignore the timewasters. I do not owe them another second of my time.

What was this thread originally about? I forget.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 15:16

Do you think I'm being too dismissive?

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 15:16

That's an interested question not a brusque chip on the shoulder question hairy

Datun · 30/09/2016 15:17

That's it in a nutshell. It doesn't matter. 'I feel therefore I am' simply isn't good enough because it doesn't , and never can, weed out the undesirables. Segregation only keeps us safe if it's based on sex.

And if ATM can come up with any other solution/compromise that doesn't involve a 15 page questionnaire prior to taking a leak, I'd be delighted to hear it.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 15:17

I feel very much more dismissive than others. Maybe a bit over-invested this afternoon.

HairyLittlePoet · 30/09/2016 15:21

dismissive? not at all. You seem to have incredible patience and staying power.

Datun · 30/09/2016 15:27

The restraint has been impressive in my opinion Grin

ATransMum · 30/09/2016 15:54

It wasn't a trick question. It was an honest one.

Draw your own conclusions though.

WitchingHour666 · 30/09/2016 15:56

Understandably, those that have a fetish motive for "transitioning" do not want to admit that is their motive. I'd be very surprised if many did openly admit that. However, I think we all can see what the DSM V says is the motive of males with "late-onset". Those that deny this motive I would say are engaging in gaslighting.

There is also a lot of minimising of women's concerns, and comparing them to ridiculous things.

As well as using people from other cultures, and intersex conditions, as pawns to further the ideology and try to add legitimacy to it.

There is also a lot of misdirection, trying to get us to focus on other things, like which men are, or are not likely to pose a threat. This is simply to distract from the fact the ideology itself is rotten, and needs to be opposed.

Many advocates of trans ideology argue this way, they pretend to be reasonable and wanting to find a solution. Translated what I hear is "I will say whatever I have to, and use whatever manipulation I can, in order to get what I want from you. Which is to enter women's spaces, without you pesky women trying to spoil my fun."

I also see the old divide and conquer tactic of trying to turn women against each other, which is an age old tactic males use. The absolute envy and hatred of lesbian women, is actually stomach turning. This is of course because lesbian women are actually women. Where as a male never will be, despite what they do to their bodies. When I hear these men spewing these homophobic slurs, this is what I hear; "lesbians get to be in women only spaces, why cant I? It's not fair (sulk)". The fact that these men clearly think in this way says a lot about their motives. I suppose at least it reveals the revolting hatred towards lesbian women, at the heart of this ideology, if nothing else.

WitchingHour666 · 30/09/2016 15:57

"The current system may be providing checks and balances." Not really, those that get off on feeling "womanly" often seek boob jobs and hormones. One could argue they are even more disturbed, than those that don't. But obviously this "self identifying" lets in any men at all.

Agree with WinchesterWoman. Most males from the "late onset" group are highly manipulative. Many men in general are diagnosed as narcissists. Because narcissism comes from entitlement, and most males feel entitled, as the whole society tells them how great men are etc. When they start dressing up, and other men snigger at them or give them funny looks, because they think they are gay men. These men are shocked, as they are not used to such treatment. When women say no to them, they blow up into a rage, because they are so used to having women fawn all over them, and comply with their every desire. Simply put because they are men, they are used to being treated like kings, when they are not, they feel like their world is ending. There is no point trying to reason with narcissists, they are one of worse groups, most mental health workers do not want to work with them. Because they never want to change, just manipulate, they are like spoilt children, only often dangerous.

One of these men even went on a site, and tried to claim radical feminists are happy being called "terfs", and invented the term. Therefore it is ok for these men to use it like men used to use the word witch, to target women who would not submit to them. That is level of manipulation (narcissism) these men have, i'm talking about "late onset" group here. It is mostly these men who run the trans orgs, there are also homophobic parents who run some of the orgs for kids, and at least one prominent Ftt.

The motivations for a Ftt or a "early onset" mtt are different. They have to keep reassuring themselves what they have done to themselves is the right thing. Focusing on sex role non-conforming kids, and encouraging them to believe the are opposite sex, helps them achieve this. The motivations are different for the three different groups, but they are all equally harmful, when they are promoting it to others.

Ultimately if a woman sees gender as a role imposed on women to keep us in our place, then there is no compromise to be had. The whole ideology has to go, of course men will fight tooth and nail to keep it (especially those who can justify their fetishes through it). Just as men fought women at every turn, for every other right women achieved. This is why it is so important to support other women over men and their egos/feelings, and why we have feminism and sisterhood.

Felascloak · 30/09/2016 15:58

I know my post is going to be ignored, but anyhow
Would you agree personality is a mix of nature and nurture?
Yes, but that's totally irrelevant as to whethere trans women are women. There's no such thing as a "woman" personality.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 15:59

I did ATM, did you not notice? No brain sex, no marker for brain sex? Why? Did you come to a different conclusion that there IS a marker for brain sex? Did I miss it? What is it?

ATransMum · 30/09/2016 15:59

Sage sounds like the Cogiati test.

I take any online 'gender' test with a very large dose of salt as they are usually based on gender bias and stereotypes ('can you read maps really well?')

I came out as Androgyne or Probably Transexual when I did it. Of course that is clearly why I decided the transition, because some online test told me I was trans (note: that is sarcasm. Please don't quote it back to me).

Datun · 30/09/2016 16:02

As was mine. Which remains unanswered.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 16:03

ATM why are you talking about stereotypes in that lofty way as if they're nothing to do with trans?

femfortheday · 30/09/2016 16:09

People might not transition because of an online test but there is a whole Internet out there where young people who are unhappy with themselves and their bodies and struggling with social pressure to look and behave in specific ways are seeking support and advice. They're being told to transition by people they view as more knowledgeable, people they view as their peers. And that idea spreads. There was an article recently about a four year old socially transitioning. I have a four year old, and I spend a ridiculous amount of time teaching him that there's nothing fundamentally girl/boy about clothes, toys, activities, hairstyles, mannerisms etc etc. But a four year old can now 'socially transition'? What does that even mean? I have absolutely no idea what I would say to him if this was a child in his class. It's very very worrying.

ATransMum · 30/09/2016 16:13

@WankingMonkey

But you believe gender and sex are different.

You believe gender is partly social construct and partly personality.

You believe personality is mostly nature.

From those it is logical to infer gender is therefore partly nature, but different from sex.

That's pretty much the basis of everything I stand for.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 16:13

ATM your argument there was just totally deconstructed and rebutted by about four posters before you even made it.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 16:16

Actually it was more than rebutted. It was refuted. Bring us that marker for brain sex, if you have it, the quality that all females share and no males share. I'm really not holding my breath here.

BaronessEllaSaturday · 30/09/2016 16:19

You believe personality is mostly nature. the problem with that argument ATM is that WM is only giving their view not a fact my view is that personality is nurture not nature therefore no part of gender is nature, it is all an artificial construct therefore the best way for everyone to be happy is to get rid of gender, treat everyone as equal while still respecting biological facts.

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