Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

Better still would be women's spaces for women only.

' I think there is an internal sense of gender other than just the biology. But it's not the pink or blue side of gender, it's more the internal sense of gender one has that is innate. '

Nope, me neither.

I've been trying to think whether 'feeling like a woman' has any meaning for me ... the only things which this phrase evokes are physical phenomena beyond my concious control. e.g. the womb totally doing what it wants in childbirth. That weird thing that can happen when you're lactating where someone elses baby crying causes you to leak. WTF? Other things not related to motherhood too. I can't come up with anything to do with my thinking or non-physical 'feeling' that I would associate with being a woman (or classify as 'masculine' thinking either).

Boobs jobs aren't available on the NHS for trans women at all. This contradicts what someone I know says. I mentioned earlier knowing two mtf transsexuals who are post op. One of them freely admits to anyone who will listen that they got the entire 'gender reassignment' package on the NHS.

A quick google shows www.hey.nhs.uk/patient-leaflet/gender-reassignment-surgery-male-female-breast-augmentation-surgery/ ?

I feel gender isn't totally socially constructed. Social construction is a significant portion of it (and anyone messing around with pink and blue toys in shops gets a high five from me). But I don't feel that's the whole story. I think there is an internal sense of gender other than just the biology. But it's not the pink or blue side of gender, it's more the internal sense of gender one has that is innate. This is more than just body parts, it's a sense of character or purpose (kind of like how your IQ is based partly on raw capacity and partly on experience and education). And for me the gender 'spectrum' isn't just a male to female spectrum, it's a tad more multifaceted than that (spectrum covers every variation of colour, not just white to black). It's kind of like sexuality when you factor in things like asexuality, kink and romantic vs. sexual attraction. The Kinsey scale has been updated to include asexuality, for instance. I do like that fact that people can express their individuality through something other than 'straight/bi/gay' these days. Equally that sexuality, non-monogamy, kink and gender are much more freely discussed than the more Victorian approach. It seems laughable to divide society into male vs female, gay vs straight or by any other tribe. Everyone is a unique individual. But I don't think there is an infinite amount of genders out there. I feel that people have a fairly unique combination of gender, sexuality, romantic attraction and approach to sex. But there are definable quanta in each of those. Defining those is beyond my skill set really. So I'm all for deconstructing and/or getting rid of gender. Although I have never seen women as 'weaker' in anyway. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses and it's always working together that we accomplish great things.

I don't see where any of this has anything at all to do with the consequences of self-identification. It's self-justifying twaddle.

Winchester...this was my fault. I brought in this article

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

to the conversation and ATM is replying to what was written in it

The article makes total sense to me, and concludes with pretty much 'gender' is personality and socialization, and everyone really has their own 'gender'. It puts across my view on the whole 'identity' thing perfectly and doesn't seem to miss anything out in tying up the knots. ATM was replying with how she saw it.

WinchesterWoman

Agreed. Can't use it as argument cos - no science/stats/proof.

The article makes total sense to me, and concludes (IMO) with pretty much 'gender' is personality and socialization, and everyone really has their own 'gender'.

That should have read. It seems pretty straightforward to me. BUT the person who introduced me to it in the first place read it and came to the opposite conclusion...which annoyed him a lot

Don't apologise WM you are so great at this conversation! But whether in response to your own very coherent article or not, it was still twaddle, and self-justifying twaddle at that.

Datun I liked this:

These conversations always come down to the same thing:
I'm a woman.
No you're not. And here's 600 reasons why.
Still am.

It's 32 pages in four sentences. It's almost a haiku.

For every gender characteristic you could name, I could provide a woman who doesn't have it. Still a woman though.

Thank you WinchesterWoman.

A person who cannot see has no concept of colour. Some one who can see can attempt to illustrate the concept by referencing the other senses perhaps, red has properties like warmth (we have a common point of reference for warmth) and green can feel peaceful.

So if I am attempting to explain a concept to someone who cannot begin to imagine that concept I have to draw on examples that we can both use as a frame of reference.

Not once, ever, has a MTT made even the flimsiest, most cursory attempt to explain to actual women WHAT this female gender identity feeling consists of.

You'd think, if it's so damned important that someone would have a crack at it wouldn't you?

Words are not that hard, are they?
I know myself to be tall.
I consider myself healthy.
I can feel my uterus contracting.
I feel ovulation pain.
I like pears
Singing makes me happy

Each of those statements puts me in a common group with some people and not with others. They are useful as a defining characteristic of the "pear lovers society" but not much else.

But the "woman" feeling?

How hard can it be to explain what it means to consider yourself to have a quality or feeling or identity that 3.4 bn people all share?

Is it possible that this "woman feeling" is exclusive to people with penises perhaps?

@Datun - trust me I've read a lot of this, and been on several forums around this in the past and it's disturbing. But then I remember the 'infinite monkeys and typewriters' and remember that applies to the internet.

Anonymity is also a powerful motivator for dark diatribes.

You are trawling the gutters of the internet. If you pick any deviant sexual area and go onto any forum where there is an anonymous access you will be horrified by what is out there. Transvestic fetish is the same.

Or you could go read crossdresserswives.com - that's a great site for angry women discussing cross dressers.

I keep reading this thread and feeling like tearing my hair out and I've finally figured out why. ATM is not listening, we can say how we feel, what we think being a woman/female is and means but ATM knows better and that is the male privilege at work. ATM will never be a woman or really understand what it means because socialisation from the word go has been different. It doesn't matter what innate feelings people have about whether they should really have been born a man or a woman without actually having been born that and socialised to that position throughout life you can never truly be that.

I am a woman, I am female, I've given birth to children however I am not feminine, I don't wear dresses I don't wear makeup. I do my own DIY. My degree is physics. If I recall rightly from the sage test thread the only person who came out as more masculine than me was WM and that was including the men who did the test. I've no interest in being a man but I don't want to be boxed up as a woman either I just want to be allowed to be me, be the individual I am and to do what ever I wish to do because I am a human that however will not happen while we have men who say they are transwomen because being a women means xy and z. Let people be what the hell they want to be and wear what they want to it doesn't change biological facts though.

Absolutely not listening. Me me me.

@WankingMonkey - I agree, gender is a combination of personality and socialisation.

Would you agree personality is a mix of nature and nurture?

ATM - long post but you didn't answer Datun's question.

How would suggest we go about protecting ourselves other than by sex segregation ?

But ATM, just because it's weirdos and 'gutter internet', doesn't mean it isn't there. These weird, dark people are searingly honest precisely because it IS anonymous. They don't have to toe the party line.

They are not somehow precluded from the trans movement because they witter on across the internet.

You can't seriously suggest ANOTHER layer of gatekeeping:
'Oi you, do you post anonymously on the net about your motives?'
No?
Ok, in you come.

Strewth.

my antennae always shudder at 'trust me'

And funnily enough, I don't want ANY sexually deviant monkey bashing on his keyboard trying to write Hamlet in my loo.

Would you agree personality is a mix of nature and nurture?

Interesting question. I believe personality is primarily nature, however aspects of your personality can be shaped by various experiences you have throughout your life. Not something I have ever thought of before actually.

Wanking monkey it's a trick question. If you say personality is part of gender, and gender is 'nature' then you've said gender is nature, or gender is innate. You've been so nice, and sweet, and making the effort to listen, and you've been tricked in payment.

ermigaahhd

If you say personality is part of gender, and personality is 'nature' then you've said gender is nature, or gender is innate.

It doesn't matter, because everything of human consciousness is of human consciousness, is of human biology, is of human nature. None of which means that brain gender exists, that a marker for brain gender exists, that any clearly identifiable marker exists for 'female' and 'woman' than 'is of the sex that can produce eggs and bear young'

No doubt another waffly lecture will follow about how we need to listen to transpeople to unlock the true nature of our gender

If I recall rightly from the sage test thread the only person who came out as more masculine than me was WM and that was including the men who did the test.

--

Ahh I had forgotten about that. When it turned out that nearly every member was a crossdresser or trans. And I broke the test and made it think I was intersex

--

Your Raw Score is: -950, which indicates that overall you are Masculine

Your appearance is Masculine

Your brain processes are mostly that of a Masculine Male person.

You appear to socialize in a very masculine manner.

You believe you have no real conflicts about your gender identity.

You indicated your were born Female.

ANALYSIS:
If your physical sex is Female your analysis confuses S.A.G.E., as you appear to have attributes of the Male gender, but have not apparently done anything to alter your physical appearance. Leading this program to wonder if you are actually Intersexed? If you are not, your hesitation to begin transition indicates you have doubts about your ability to successfully do so, even though you seem to be a serious candidate for Gender Reassignment Surgery.

--

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2721832--Yes-its-a-trans-thread-Dont-click-if-youre-gonna-whinge-The-SAGE-test?pg=1

For anyone who missed the moment so many discovered we were trans...