Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

"CoteDAzur has it down as Male to Transwoman (I'm happy with that description, although can't speak for other trans people). WinchesterWomen has it down as Male to Trans (which is a very different version)."

How is it different? "Trans" itself is surely an abbreviation of Transwoman (in MTT) or Transman (in FTT). "Trans" isn't a noun in itself that I am aware of.

"I don't know what everyone else knows about hormones, gender, chromosomes etc. etc. so I might be teaching some people to suck eggs (for which I apologise). But some people might also learn something."

With all due respect, I think the one to learn something on this thread might be you.

Did you read what I wrote re disorders in my previous post? Notably, that they are due to faulty genes and not part of the normal human condition. So we are a bipedal species despite the existence of some people born without legs, and we are a sexually dimorphic species despite the existence of some people born with ambiguous or abnormal genitalia wrt their karyotype.

@Datum - I think there is a third option.

Neither of us want fetishistic cross dressers in our changing rooms.

I think if you had female identity of some form then that is an acceptable compromise. You don't get female ID without going down the gender identity process and being signed off by two doctors under the current system. Plus you have to send off paperwork, pay money and get ID (Passport or Driving License I'm talking about here, not your Wonder Woman ID badge from a DC comic).

This keeps out anyone 'just feeling girly and wearing a wig' on the day. And if someone really wants access to the women's bathroom to commit an assault (remembering that there isn't actually a law against a man going into a woman's bathroom anyway), they have to go through two clinicians and a whole bunch of paperwork, as well as paying money to change their ID.

Any venue which is frequented by cross dressers (e.g. LGBT venues) would have appropriate signage or simply gender neutral bathrooms.

If the GRC process was simpler I'd say that was the best approach. And if it does get simplified then we can move to that.

That doesn't require a massive infrastructure refit, and seems to offer a good solution for everyone without involving GRC's. And when the GRC process gets simplified (fingers crossed) then we can switch to that.

"If everything was perfectly black and white then it would be easier. But also boring. I find life in the little grey areas much more interesting."

Yeah, well, we are not finding you TAs' "greying" of female spaces, female sports and statistics as fun as you seem to.

Atm: the third option is trans people fighting the self identification agenda. Which you won't do because it's going the way you like. It's all about YOU.

Male to Trans isn't an abbreviation of Male to Trans woman.

Trans woman is fine, I'll accept mttw as well. It's like only one extra letter.

You know what you obviously care more about a stupid abbreviation than women being assaulted in toilets. Jesus.

The 'current' system might be providing some checks and balances, but what we're seeing is a massive push to dispense with them (hence the title of the thread). As previous posters have suggested, it really isn't in the interests of 'genuine' (for want of a better word) trans to back this. New York has decided 'The Ordinance also underscores the illegality of asking people to show identification or medical records as proof of gender before entering a city-owned restroom'. So yeah, in NY you can't even ask for someone's motives, let alone be assured of it being provided.

They should include free cramprons for women to grab on the slide down the slippery slope.

@WinchesterWoman

I said most of the trans agenda is going my way. There is no point me fighting the 'cruise ship' to use someone else's analogy. But I can however help navigate it through smoother waters.

I don't like self identification either. I've said that several times in fact.

I like the gatekeeper idea. I would just like other trans people to not have to wait 18+ months to actually meet the gatekeeper (I registered for the NHS process in the April 2015 and had my GIC appointment this month).

Medical professionals to me are key in this - filtering out people who aren't serious around transition and can show the right historical evidence for transition (it's not like I decided two years ago - I've been challenged by this for 30+ years and have been pushing it back and denying it all that time).

Equally they can hopefully pick up on paraphillias / AGP / fetishistic elements.

Having to go through your GP initially, have your trans status listed on your NHS records, and then spending a good couple of hours in front of two different clinical experts asking lots of probing questions will discourage anyone who isn't serious about this, and pick up anyone who is doing it for the wrong reasons.

I also hold a slightly controversial view that lower surgery shouldn't always be provided on the NHS. The operation is incredibly expensive and that money could be paying for improving the initial process. More trans people's lives would be saved by getting them earlier access to hormones and the right mental health services than by vaginoplasty. It's only cases of extreme dysphoria where it is warranted.

MTT, meaning male to trans, is only othering if you believe there's something othering about being identified as male. But transwomen are male and there's no shame in that.

It's pretending that MTTs are women - insisting we accept this blatant lie - that leads to all the problems. If they were upfront about being the GNC males they are the conflict between them and women would disappear. At present we're being told our boundaries aren't important, that we should shut up, budge up and do what a small group of males tell us to.

The arrogance of some TAs is astounding.

So you don't like MTT therefore you use terms like TERF and Cis?

The current trans agenda IS self-identification. Why aren't you fighting that? Why?

Despite how fervently some MTT are desperately contriving to draw distinctions between "just cross-dressers" and "real transwomen like meeeeee" it must be galling to hear actual women saying "nope, mate. Male is male. Your self-belief is as irrelevant as your politics or your favourite colour when it comes to my right to pee in a place segregated for women only."

How I wish it would become best practice to have 3 sets of toilets. One for females who demand the right the right to be with their own female sex. One for males who demand the right to be with the male sex. And one for people who give a shit about identities and want to share "identity toileting".

There will always be plenty of females willing to show how they share a ladybrain in common with MTT. I've no desire to talk them out of their opinions on that so long as they don't project those opinions onto other women. Surely that would be enough validation for MTT? You could put pictures of eyeliner and rainbows and unicorns on the door to signal total acceptance of all body types. Or pink brains like the Science museum exhibit. Just to be totally clear.

Basically, this is a lot of guff around why women shouldn't mind the increase risk of assault in toilets and an absolute reduction in privacy.

Hairy not you. You're being pithy rather than guff.

"Male to Trans isn't an abbreviation of Male to Trans woman."

It is actually, but you think it's not because you insist on writing Transwoman as two words.

I get it. If you write it as "Trans Woman", you feel that makes you a woman just like any other woman.

But it doesn't. Whichever you write it.

I do sympathise and I do feel sorry for you and others like you whose self--esteem hang on a single letter or even a space.

Not so sorry that I will humour your (objectively, biologically) false self-image and throw half of the human race under the bus, though.

I stopped using the term cis when asked nicely.

I have barely used the word TERF other than to describe the term MTT or as an expletive that most other TA's use.

I don't think I've called anyone here a TERF (although could be mistaken - still a bit jet lagged). Someone did claim a TERF badge but I wasn't handing any out.

I'm trying to be nice (and see, listening).

"it's not like I decided two years ago - I've been challenged by this for 30+ years"

We are all adults here, so I feel it's OK to ask this:

How do you expect us to believe that you "felt like"/wanted to be/etc feminine (gender) and/or a woman (sex) for 30+ years, during which you fathered not one but multiple children through PIV sex with your wife?

ATA
It's a derogatory term used by TERFs to other trans women so I don't like it

Your words

Here's a definition of othering.
Stealing a word with a perfectly objective definition that describes a very specific group of people.
Declaring a right to redefine that word.
Redefining all the people who the word originally applied to.
Telling those people that they can continue to use their own word if they are good but now need an OTHER prefix to make sure we understand that they are no longer allowed to use their own word exclusively.

What men did to women:
It was like "borrowing" somebody's housekey when they aren't looking, getting a copy cut, handing the original key back to the original owner and explaining that there is now a new houseowner, they have taken possession, they have amended the legal documents, and if the original owner is good, they may be allowed to use the house on occasion but only on the understanding that they are now a lodger and have to abide by new houserules invented by the interlopers or face eviction.

When dickwads talk about evolution of language and "woman" becoming a wider description until any true meaning has been completely obscured, I find myself wondering whether those same folks would be totally cool with someone widening the scope of who the new owner is of their house, possessions, family. Oh, yeah, it's like, ridiculously possessive to imagine that you should be the only one with a key to your house. What do you mean, you have the right to privacy? The right to exclude people you don't want in your home? It's not just your home any more, bigot! We widened the definition of "your" for you.

It doesn't matter that you used TERF as a way of describing other people not us. You used it. I twirled with a sticker but nobody wrote hours long semantic posts about it, God we would still be on about it. What happened was, I registered it and changed my opinion of you. Didn't go on about it for hours.

I would just like other trans people to not have to wait 18+ months to actually meet the gatekeeper (I registered for the NHS process in the April 2015 and had my GIC appointment this month).

Yes, but ... everything takes forever in health and mental health services.

My son had to wait two years for mental health therapy to start. To get any kind of disability assessment (note: not the help, just the assessment) took years.

To get any special dispensation for school and university he had to show that his condition was permanent and serious - and he still has to jump through the bloody hoops every year to prove that something, y'know, permanent, is still there.

I really fail to see why we should expect gender dysphoria or whatever should take any less time to process or require lower standards of 'proof'.

If DS could 'self-identify' as disabled, that would be ever so much easier, but it isn't going to be permitted any time soon.

Actually your use of TERF was the moment the seventh of the seven veils came down, revealing the truth beneath.

ATM, will you go back to your groups and tell them what we have said?

Maybe I should call myself Male Exclusionary Non-Radical Feminist. (I don't quite care if males have transitioned or not.)

MENRF.

It has a Smurf-like sound to it

Any venue which is frequented by cross dressers (e.g. LGBT venues) would have appropriate signage or simply gender neutral bathrooms.

Ummm.