Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

Hairy - spot on. I find it interesting that the very same people I find on Tumblr being very critical of cultural appropriation (native American headbands, Disney selling tattooed skin suits as merchandising for their latest film, etc) are the first people to shout "TERF" when women complain that they are now being labelled "cis". They're also likely to be the sort of people who complain about Eddie Redmayne doing "trans-face" but are strangely silent over men doing drag acts which demean women. One might almost think they were cherry picking which causes to get behind depending on their trendiness. And strangely, real womanhood, with all the bloody messy business of our biology, isn't trendy. Faux womanhood, with fluttery eyelashes (TM my son, aged about 4, who pointed this out about playmobil figures), being "sex positive" (i.e. bending over backwards to take it up the arse - often quite literally - not because you enjoy it but because you want to show off how happy you are to play the patriarchy's game, in other words, being the complete polar opposite of being genuinely positive about sex), talking about "pregnant persons" (when in reality - as one feminist I saw put it pithily - this is to feminism as the white-privilege response of "all lives matter" is to black civil rights) - all these things are trendy.

These conversations always come down to the same thing:
I'm a woman.
No you're not. And here's 600 reasons why.
Still am.

Yeah I'm bored now datun.

I had a very interesting conversation with a trans male friends who said certain gay guys were after trans man with 'original plumbing' (I think you can google that one...).

It is all very odd when you think about it. I would describe a gay guy who wants a 'guy' with a vulva to be 'pansexual' as gay by definition means attracted solely to the same sex. There is not really a word for people who are attracted to 'femininity' or 'masculinity' in itself.. as this falls on the 'personality' scale to me? Like, I am a straight female so as such I am attracted to males. My 'type' seems to be tall, dark hair, lean, etc. I don't seem to like a certain kind of personality..but if I did, this doesn't change my sexuality? The rest are just traits and such, where sex is non-changeable.

Its really strange trying to understand it all

You can't understand it all as it's mind-bogglingly stupid WM

I also hold a slightly controversial view that lower surgery shouldn't always be provided on the NHS.

I agree with this. I would go as far to say 'sex change' surgery shouldn't be available on the NHS to start with. Like most other cosmetic procedures aren't. Only time I have heard of people getting boob jobs on the NHS (besides trans issues) are for example..rebuilding after mastectomies. So medical or as a result of medical stuff..not a case of 'oh I would feel happier with boobs' or whatever.

As a side note, my mother had breast cancer a few years ago. She chose not to have a reconstruction and was told the risk of the cancer coming back in her remaining breast was high, so she opted for that one took off too. NHS refused to cut off a healthy breast. She had to go private. So the elective chopping off of healthy body parts for no medical reason at all really annoys me...

Was a weird position...she was so frustrated as they said she could have the reconstructive surgery on the NHS if she chose to. But she saw this as just aesthetically pleasing whereas she personally would rather lose the large risk of going through it all again...but they do not take off healthy body parts, even if there is a large chance (acknowledged by her consultants) that said healthy body parts will cause issues in the future.

Shit loads of trans people describe themselves as trans on its own. Trans isn't an insult or a slur. Male to trans is therefore simply using terminology that is used by trans people themselves, but in a way that you don't like, because it contradicts your assertion that you are male to female/man to woman. You aren't. In fact, male to trans is also incorrect. Male Trans or Female Trans is more correct but I expect you think that's a slur too?

On medical stuff too..this is rather personal but meh..

I have been told I cannot be sterilized as I am too young and may change my mind. I am sure I will not change my mind but this appears not to matter. The reason I am sure is that we struggle a lot with the 2 we have, and simply could not afford another child..especially with the changes to tax credits looming as we wouldn't even have a safety net of any kind. I have the implant, AND DH uses protection but there is still a risk of pregnancy. So my options? Be celibate for the rest of my life or take a risk and possibly have to consider abortion at some stage in the future. Lovely.

The other option of DH being sterilized is being fought at the moment, but he is also being told he is too young (at 32).

Meanwhile, teens are effectively being sterilized. For identifying with the opposite sex. Maybe I should go down that route... I 'live as a man' in most ways already as I am not a stereotypical girly girl which seems to be required to 'live as a woman'.

Where is the sense?

I agree with pp who said previously women have not minded or thought much about trans women using female only facilities, and why that is shifting.

One of the problems I have with it is now it seems to be becoming more and more socially acceptable that anyone can go into female only spaces. As these issues are coming into the public forum then people who are dangerous or perverse are realising, hang on, there is nothing to stop me from going in there, and if someone tries to I can challenge it.

I realise the overwhelming majority of trans woman/gender fluid/ whatever are no danger, but female only spaces exist for a reason.

Realistically toilets, changing rooms etc cannot be effectively monitored in most places, so I personally don't think that having 'proof' of your gender identity is a workable solution.

I read these posts with great interest, and try to see the other side, but I often feel filled with despair. I feel like it is a rolling stone gaining momentum and we are going to be crushed under it.

Yes enariva: many changes that were supposed to take effect with legislation, that we could supposedly fight, are taking effect without any legislation through cultural shift. Eg universities: any body claiming a certain identity must be allowed access to segregated facilities. It's written into the policy of my daughters uni. How many more?

Nope, not in the early days of my transition at all. Been doing it for over 2 years now (actual transition), but working up to it a long time before then.

Everyone does stuff in a different order. I've socially transitioned without realising it pretty much, mid-way through medical transition (almost a year on feminising hormones, 18 months on t-blockers) and just starting the legal stuff due to my ex-wife's wishes (kids didn't know until she randomly outed me a few months back - not going there on that one)

But there was a lot of build up, counselling and a whole childhood of experiences that factor into that

I'm not surprised by any of this. 2 years is recent. And you've socially transitioned a matter of months ago. Bloody hell, I've had holidays longer than that. I've had periods that have lasted longer than you've been transitioned (sadly true, thank you, Mirena).

I have a very fair idea of the course of your gender non comformity. I wonder how your ex wife would feel about you styling yourself "mum" now? I wonder what her version of the story would be?

Look, kudos to you for sticking around and remaining largely non-abusive, ATM, but there can be no consensus. Gender critical and trans-positive are two different religions, and we'll see peace in the middle east before we see feminists and "innate gender" believers agreeing. You carry on your life, you do you, and all power to you, but sorry, you won't change my mind. A woman is a woman, and a transwoman is a transwoman. A man is a man and a transman is a transman.

Ah, cultural shift is a good way of putting it, thank you.

Something I read in a different thread that has stuck with me. Taking age as a comparison with sex. You can attempt to pass as a different age, you can adopt the fashions, trends, lifestyle 'typical' of a different aged person. You may have a condition where you age faster, or have a mental age different to your birth age, but that does not change your biological age.

I realise it is not a perfect parallel but I quite liked it.

@WankingMonkey

That is an interesting article!

There are a few underpinning points I'd contest, but it is quite thought provoking.

I feel gender isn't totally socially constructed. Social construction is a significant portion of it (and anyone messing around with pink and blue toys in shops gets a high five from me). But I don't feel that's the whole story. I think there is an internal sense of gender other than just the biology. But it's not the pink or blue side of gender, it's more the internal sense of gender one has that is innate. This is more than just body parts, it's a sense of character or purpose (kind of like how your IQ is based partly on raw capacity and partly on experience and education).

And for me the gender 'spectrum' isn't just a male to female spectrum, it's a tad more multifaceted than that (spectrum covers every variation of colour, not just white to black).

It's kind of like sexuality when you factor in things like asexuality, kink and romantic vs. sexual attraction. The Kinsey scale has been updated to include asexuality, for instance.

I do like that fact that people can express their individuality through something other than 'straight/bi/gay' these days. Equally that sexuality, non-monogamy, kink and gender are much more freely discussed than the more Victorian approach.

It seems laughable to divide society into male vs female, gay vs straight or by any other tribe. Everyone is a unique individual.

But I don't think there is an infinite amount of genders out there. I feel that people have a fairly unique combination of gender, sexuality, romantic attraction and approach to sex. But there are definable quanta in each of those. Defining those is beyond my skillset really.

So I'm all for deconstructing and/or getting rid of gender. Although I have never seen women as 'weaker' in anyway. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses and it's always working together that we accomplish great things.

It seems laughable to you to split the world in to male and female. But women have needed sex segregated spaces, and we still do. That you don't understand this is testament to your knowledge of what being a woman actually means. What life is really like for us.

The comments about GRCs are confusing too, if you would permit transwomen with GRCs to access women's spaces, how do we moderate that? Challenge every non passing transwomen or masculine woman for proof?

What is thw difference between someone claiming their identity is fluid and while they are male, some days they identify as women and want to be treated as such, and someone who transitions full time? If this is really about self identification as the singular truth to be respected, their identity and right to be treated as a woman and accepted into women's spaces is no less valid than yours.

@WankingMonkey

I have friends facing the same dilemma - apparently you can't choose a hysterectomy or having your tubes tied as a woman because 'you might still want kids'. That smacks massively of patriarchy and reducing women to baby factories and it annoys the hell out of me.

Boobs jobs aren't available on the NHS for trans women at all. And facial surgery options are very limited.

Sorry to hear about your mum as well.

@FreshwaterSelkie

I actually don't use the term 'mum' with my kids as that's what they call her. I don't see myself as an equal or replacement, and would never presume to replace her (even though we are divorced and I have plenty of reasons to not be civil with her!).

My kids still call me dad (which is gonna freak people out at some point I suspect but hey, smashing gender boundaries is fun right?).

Transition is recent (as in 2 years). The stuff leading up to that is longer (and I'm sure people have heard enough about my life story). Did consider it in my 20's but there was no information back then and I would have felt like an outcast I suspect.

'it's more the internal sense of gender one has that is innate.'

This one doesn't have this.

'Working together we accomplish great things'

You are working against women, not working with women.

"Any venue which is frequented by cross dressers (e.g. LGBT venues) would have appropriate signage or simply gender neutral bathrooms."
Well, the cottaging gay men aren't going to like that one little bit, that would put a severe crimp in their fun! Seriously, have some of these people ever been in a gay club.....................

But it's not the pink or blue side of gender, it's more the internal sense of gender one has that is innate. This is more than just body parts, it's a sense of character or purpose
I don't have one either. Apart from a personality. This is why I think it's similar to having religious faith. Religious people will tell you they just know or can sense there is a God. Atheists don't have that feeling.
I'm a gender atheist

"It seems laughable to divide society into male vs female, gay vs straight or by any other tribe. Everyone is a unique individual."

Not laughable if you're female, and not laughable if you're gay either. The fact that you can even contemplate saying this just highlights your male privilege and sense of entitlement and total ignorance of these topics.

If everyone is such a unique individual, why do you insist that splitting males who are trans women from males who are men is okay, but splitting females from males isn't? It's ludicrous and insulting nonsense. And also makes me very angry, of course.

Thank you somedyke.

It seems laughable to divide society into male vs female

But people (yy, with some very few rare exceptions) are either male or female. They have either a penis or a vagina. It's how we breed. We don't breed in shades of grey, or degrees of kink, or any of the other things you mention.

@femfortheday

Wow, I was talking about the article which is forward looking, not at the current situation.

I'm not saying we don't need the division now in the slightest. I work with people for which that division is critical (some would say life saving) with my charity work - do not presume that is male privilege talking.

If you create a genderless world then it will seem laughable that we were ever in that position. Perhaps that is what I should have said.

With regards to women's spaces, I didn't say my solution was perfect. I said it was better than 'anyone that slaps a wig on can walk into your space'.

@ftw - I was commenting on an article about gender. But feel free to keep quoting me out of context, it really helps the debate when people reiterate the same point over and over.

Yes, humans come in mostly in two sexes (with a nod to the intersex community). I've never argued that point. It's pretty factual.

ATM - I don't want to offend you as you sound reasonable. But mindful of what you said, I googled 'how many transwomen have AGP'. This is from the top 5 threads. Verbatim.

'First of all there is no such thing as AGP. AGP is a fairly unsupportable diagnosis to try and deny the existence of lesbian transwomen'

'...for the record everything that can be packed into that non-medical description that has been called "AGP" is the same thing that natal born women experience. Every tiny bit of it'.

'...forced feminization, mysogyny and humiliation...looking at porn of cis women and imagining them as victims. That was my main mode of fantasy'.

'It was really a humiliation fetish...like how embarrassing it would be to be a woman and do girly things'.

'...it's the humiliation part of being a women that I like'.
'..we all know transsexuals who read up on what psychiatrists want to hear'

'If the psychiatrists thought for one second that we were getting turned on by silk panties, our transition plans could be pushed back'.

'...some non-trans women get turned on by their bodies and clothes...the feel of silk, the sheer negligee, a tight skirt showing off their ass, the smell of a leather jacket,thigh-high boots, a riding crop. The self love makes you feel validated...it's acceptable for XX women to do this, it's often encouraged'.

I know you have distanced yourself from this aspect of the ideology, (and I'm sure that's true or you wouldn't be here), but there is literally reams and reams of this. There are very many people who are most definitely 'going through the process' in order to legitimise their sexual motivation. Going on a medically fraught journey doesn't appear to be a deterrent as not only is the sexual compulsion very strong, the medicalisation seems to actually augment it.

My question remains the same. How would suggest we go about protecting ourselves other than by sex segregation ?

(even though we are divorced and I have plenty of reasons to not be civil with her!)

I wonder what her side of the story is? I have no idea of course, possibly she is an evil witch who maxxed out your credit cards but your comment is entirely irrelevant to anything on here- so why make it?

This is why I think it's similar to having religious faith. Religious people will tell you they just know or can sense there is a God. Atheists don't have that feeling

Yes, I've said that before . Religious faith or any sort of spirituality is incomprehensible to me. I have no understanding whatsoever of what anyone feels when they talk about their god or their relationship with god.

I suppose to that extent "feeling like a woman" makes slightly more sense to me than spirituality/religion as I'm very happy to appear as very feminine .