Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

People who transition to someone neither male nor female are non-binary.

Trans women = male to female
Trans man = female to male
Non-binary = anything to 'gender is now irrelevant'.

Of course there are like a whole bunch of other terms but that does simplify it (and doesn't erase non-binary people). But of course if you subscribe to the 'sex and gender are the same thing' mantra you've already erased non-binary people.

I'm a trans woman. I don't go around saying I'm a woman, although if I don't get an option for 'trans woman' I pick 'female' because I really don't want to pick 'male'.

So if a box says 'sex' you tick...?

And since I think gender is a set of arbitrary societal rules designed to oppress me, and as such do not 'identify' with any gender, I am now non binary? Even though I don't agree with the whole system of gender?

There is no such thing as a transition from male to female.
There is no such thing as a male woman.

which is why MTT is used. This in itself is a concession, since male doesn't transition into anything other than male. As an acronym it's a simple acknowledgement that a male person describes themselves as trans.

Ah - the 'trans women must have the op to be trans women' argument. I usually get that from militant trans women.

Do you know what's involved, the risks, the fact that some people simply can't have it, the cost and the outcome?

If you did then you wouldn't be so cavalier.

I'm undecided on the 'op' and it's a personal choice. Right now if I wanted it on the NHS (and I have my own somewhat unique views on the NHS providing for that particular operation) I would have to wait for at least a year or two anyway. Jump through a whole bunch of clinical hoops and gateways. And probably still wait for another year or two for a reasonable surgeon to be available to hack me about downstairs (it's a very specialist area, and we don't have enough surgeons at the moment).

The best surgeon in the world (Dr Supporn in Thailand) is retiring and the chances of getting him doing it are slim to none. His work and technique is like comparing cross stitch to being attacked by a toddler with a staple gun (that's probably an exaggeration, but I hopefully get the point across).

For some people it is literally lifesaving as they can't stand the idea of having that horrible male part on their body anymore and their dysporia is so intense they want it gone.

For me, not so much. I'm a trans woman. Being a pre-op or non-op trans woman still makes me a trans woman.

So a penis is a male part?

'So if the box says sex you tick...'

The one that says 'yes please?'

I don't have a GRC yet. But I'll have an F on my passport when I get back from holiday and an M on my birth certificate (yes, this is pretty mad).

So I'd tick F as I have a document that proves it. But I'm not protected by the Gender Recognition Act until I get a GRC. Which takes at least 2 years, requires money and a whole pile of paper work along with some bureaucrats that have to sign off on my 'evidence' of living in role for 2 years.

Grr.

What is non-binary? Is it gender dysphoria, or a meaningless made up label self absorbed people apply to themselves when they don't fit the stereotypes applied to either sex?

Ohh...you tricked me into saying the penis is a male part! Good work :)

But is it male if it's attached to a trans woman? Hah, not answering that today.

I can't tell you what non-binary is other than from an external perspective (and you've scared off the other trans people).

But it's people that want to live outside the gender binary, or in some cases use gender as a big mixing bowl and steal the bits of cake they want. (I'd just steal the icing and the maraschino cherries if it were me).

Think androgyny, or working with both genders together.

Yes it is because a transwoman is male. You seem to be trying to complicate a lot of things that aren't complicated. Why not really challenge the gender binary and say 'look, I'm a man, and this is how I present - get with it'. Then we all win.

If you don't like gender you can chose to be non-binary. You can have Mx as a title (which is non-binary) and join the fight to remove gender markers where they aren't needed!

Yay, a recruit...?

No I'm saying that there is no such thing as a woman with a penis.

I also think that most people who are supportive of transwomen in women's changing rooms, refuges and prisons are under the false assumption that transwomen do not have penises.

I do not believe that anyone should have surgery that they are uncomfortable with. I do not believe that I as a woman should have any say over how transwomen define their own group. I do believe that no-one with a penis (even one that is supposedly unfunctioning) should have access to female only spaces

It really doesn't matter how much people with penises and testicles and XY chromosomes insist they are any type of woman. Pre or post operation.

Declaring oneself to be a thing one is not doesn't make it true. No matter how hard one insists. One simply cannot compel the world to agree with something which isn't true.

Woman. Adult human female.

@WinchesterWoman - some trans people do just that. I'm not one of them - I chose to screw with the gender binary by saying 'hey, I was assigned male at birth but now I'm a trans woman. Can I please get some female hormones, with a side order of pronouns?'

I also see sex and gender as separate things - I've bookmarked your article to read tomorrow and will get back to you

Great. I was actually introduced to this by someone who 'identifies' as genderfluid. Also, though sexuality doesn't make a difference he describes himself as pansexual, which I believe from his description means he is attracted to 'all genders' rather than one sex or the other. This lead to a huge discussion about gender politics and such. Its a hell of a piece and did make me think a lot. I seemed to read it differently to him though as my conclusion from it was that 'gender' is just personality. Which in turn angered him when I asked how personality can come into sexuality as we are attracted to one sex or the other (or both) and personality is totally unique to each person...and so on.

But a GRC is about gender, not sex. And what on earth is living in a female role?

Your description of non-binary is exactly what feminists have been trying to do, and achieving, for a long time. Except that you have placed it within the very structure that it seeks to evade.

If you can't define non binary except from an outside perspective, I would argue that you can't define womanhood from anything but the same perspective.

@OneFlewOverTheDodosNest - nope, trans women have always had the option to have surgery. I'm sure the whole 'chicks with dicks' porn industry wouldn't exist if we all got that snip.

Are you saying that if we do have the surgery then we are accepted and that if we don't we aren't? (This is a trick question btw)

Female and male are not gender markers.
If gender is nonsense (as you seem to be arguing) and your sex is male, then what makes someone a transwoman? You're arguing against your own identity.

Which takes at least 2 years, requires money and a whole pile of paper work along with some bureaucrats that have to sign off on my 'evidence' of living in role for 2 years.

For the purpose of a GRC...what do they define 'living in role' as..if you don't mind me asking? Like, how would they view you as 'living as a woman' for the 2 years required? What are you expected to do to 'live as a woman'? Is it 'dressing as a woman' and things like that?

Yup, GRC is about Gender. It is a Gender Recognition Certificate after all...

Living in female role means living and acting as a female (primarily it means you've changed your name and can prove that for 2 years - bank statements etc.). They don't have some random guy following you around checking you are wearing knickers. (I'm pretty sure they'd get lots of volunteers though).

Non-binary is trying to break the gender mould, not exist within it.

I don't have any perspective for being non-binary as I've always felt inside the gender binary - but on the wrong side of it. My definition and experience of womanhood (for want of an appropriate term) is different to yours. But so is everyone else's. There are some commonalities, and a few of those I will never experience due to genetics but there are plenty of others that I can, or experience second hand.

But I'm a trans woman. So my experience is different to yours.

People who transition to someone neither male nor female are non-binary.

Trans women = male to female Trans man = female to male Non-binary = anything to 'gender is now irrelevant'.

I wouldn't 'transition' to non-binary though. I simply am non-binary. So by being 'non-binary' my understanding is that I am classed as neither male nor female? Which is what makes no sense to me as though I am non-binary I AM female. But if 'gender identity' trumps biological sex, this would make me neither male nor female despite actually being female?

Confusing myself massively now trying to tie up all these lose ends to make sense of it all :S

I never said gender was nonsense! I said gender is your sense of self (or something along those lines - it was a while ago and it's getting later where I am!)

I think "non binary" is rampant narcissism, not in clinical terms necessarily, but in the common usage sense of the word. A desire to be different from all the boring other people. We can call them "cis". But amazing, sparkling brilliant me, I'm just so challenging and transgressive. As pp have said, given that many of us don't "identify" as a woman in terms of gender trappings (we just are women) and certainly not as a man, we're actually all non binary.

If you don't like gender you can chose to be non-binary. You can have Mx as a title (which is non-binary) and join the fight to remove gender markers where they aren't needed!

Yay, a recruit...?

Missing the point! Calling yourself non binary is buying into gender as much as calling yourself trans or cis. Nobody who is gender critical will call themselves non binary because it is diametrically opposed to our belief system.