Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

Are you saying that if we do have the surgery then we are accepted and that if we don't we aren't? (This is a trick question btw)

Not as women, no.

Women have traditionally, through socialisation and kindness, budged up and turned a blind eye in for example toilets. That has been comprehensively sabotaged by trans activists and that's the reason for my line in the sand on female spaces.

I am quite a new convert after Anna Lee so like most new converts I feel freshly angry and determined about the trans agenda. Other posters who've been fighting for longer are much more measured, and, may I say, kind. I don't think you repay that kindness by using terms like Cis and Terf, by creating straw men and by trying to lecture women on what they should be fighting for. I still think that if you want more acceptance for transwomen who have significantly altered their bodies and have a GRC, you need to fight the current trans agenda with all the breath in your body. But still, you're here, asking women to budge up. I have no idea why, when you don't seem to even try to understand.

Yeah, transitioning to non-binary is an odd one. I guess the whole 'nullo/smoothie' thing might be there (don't google that one - you think men are twisted already!).

It's more social transition than anything medical, but some people still might have bits they are dysphoric about. Although they pronouns are hard (even for people in the trans spectrum). Wrote an article about Mx Munroe a while back and had to re-read it like 3 times to make sure I hand't misgendered them.

What is non-binary? Is it gender dysphoria, or a meaningless made up label self absorbed people apply to themselves when they don't fit the stereotypes applied to either sex?

Non-binary pretty much means you don't fit the stereotypes. Also can be used for not believing in/rejecting 'gender'. So technically, I imagine most on this thread are 'non-binary'

The article I posted before goes into the whole 'binary' thing in detail...not sure if you read it or not.

Basically the very definition of non-binary means non-binary is not a rare thing. Infact finding someone who 'identifies' as female or male is there rare thing...so those people who use non-binary simply for special snowflake status are sorely mistaken...

What are the commonalities that you share with other women?

"But is it male if it's attached to a trans woman? Hah, not answering that today."
Ah well, we seem to have ended up with the usual nonsense, despite a seemingly good start. Because if you answer anything other than yes to the question, then you're at the homophobic conclusion that lesbians should be willing to shag people with penises if those people consider themselves to be something other than a man, if lesbians are at least allowed to declare themselves attracted to people possessing female bodies, rather than female gender or female souls....................

A penis is a penis although a tad more complex if you're a hyaena ( female hyaenas have a peniform clitoris despite the amazing difficulties it gives female hyaenas when it comes to giving birth! And the hypothesis that this evolved to try and avoid male violence against young female hyaenas by trying to make it look as if they have a penis. ).

I'm not going to fight someone I mostly agree with. There are a few sticking points, but the trans agenda is mostly going the right way for me.

I'm more like a helmswoman - gently steering the ship to avoid massive bloody rocks. Plus I'm only one voice (although a pretty bloody opinionated one).

Hyenas cackle don't they?

Well despite your trick question, my line is that biologically male people should not have access to female only spaces - particularly those where women are vulnerable such as refuges and prisons.

There are some women who are willing to compromise and include transwomen who have had surgery. Others will want to include all transwomen because they think that the rights of transwomen to be included trump the rights of women to sex segregated space.

Lots of this latter group are under the mistaken belief that the vast majority of tranwomen have had sex changes. Many would be very upset to be confronted by a stranger with a penis within a vulnerable space.

'but the trans agenda is mostly going the right way for me'

it's not going the right way for women

If you don't like gender you can chose to be non-binary. You can have Mx as a title (which is non-binary) and join the fight to remove gender markers where they aren't needed!

Its not really a choice to be non-binary, as its just what I am/believe? I don't see why I have to stop accepting that I am a woman though, in being non-binary? Because woman is simply adult human female, of which I am? Gender identity is separate from this.

It's not "there are a few commonalities women have that I will never experience due to genetics". Why do you think women are discriminated against? Biological issues, like being the reproductive class. Not being assertive enough, because they lack male privilege. Being perceived in a particular way be society after thousands of years of cultural conditioning based on them being chattels of men and the sex class. None of these things are applicable to the vast majority of transwomen, particularly late transitioners. But they make up a huge part of the female experience. So you don't share it, and to say you do is appropriation in the same way that crossdressers are appropriating your experience as a transwoman.

Oh, the lesbian and trans women debate.

You see my opinion is this. If a lesbian finds me attractive (some have) and are aware that I'm trans (as well as my genital status if relevant) then all good, I'd happily date them (pansexual here, hope you didn't miss that).

If they don't then I'm not going to start raving about cotton ceilings and gender policing. I'm just going to go order another round and move on.

You can't make anyone desire you if they don't want to. That's also about consent.

There are lesbians who find trans women attractive. That doesn't make them straight or bisexual (in my book at least, you may have a different copy). But equally I fully understand that some don't. Which is equally fine.

Men often are too fussed about what women consent to.

You say you are a transwoman, rather than a woman. At what point would you feel like you had become a woman?

Venus
I think "non binary" is rampant narcissism, not in clinical terms necessarily, but in the common usage sense of the word. A desire to be different from all the boring other people. We can call them "cis". But amazing, sparkling brilliant me, I'm just so challenging and transgressive.

Oh I SO agree.

And also why transwomen are more 'oppressed' than women. And why transmen don't want to be women. Being a women is recognised as being shite by everyone. Transwomen are better women than boring old 'cis' women and all their taking about their bodily functions. Transmen want to opt out of those bodily functions and the femme/pink bit because it's a bit shit. As for the rest of us boring old women, we are at bottom of the new 'gender' pile

"So I'd tick F as I have a document that proves it." and a penis that disproves it. Paper trumps penis? Kind of like a weird version of rock/paper/scissors (or perhaps we need to switch to rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock?).......

*'but the trans agenda is mostly going the right way for me'

it's not going the right way for women*

Which is why I'm still on this forum, listening and answering questions by the way. (With a few exceptions).

Off to bed now anyway (I'm overseas) so I'll check in tomorrow for lots more questions, and read that article from Monkey.

'You say you are a transwoman, rather than a woman. At what point would you feel like you had become a woman?'

I have no answer to this right now. Probably never? I know I'll never experience some things that women do.

admitting it's going the right way for you, but not for women, is acknowledging something very central there

the trans agenda is mostly going the right way for me

Well that's nice,

You might as well just say "fuck you wymin"

You are not listening to us. Yet we have listened for years, look at all tge people on this thread who have said they can understand you and similar perspectives. We've listened we have then said how its detrimental to us.

But you carry on with your fingers in your ears singing tra de lalala. Then say but it works for me.

So very disappointed

Yes. I think it's clear that transwomen in general are not our allies. I'm alright Jack, sucks to be you.

"'but the trans agenda is mostly going the right way for me'

it's not going the right way for women"

THIS^^ 6 million percent!!

Because even the transwomen who don't totally agree with all the transactivist nonsense still don't seem to want to dare to disagree with them for the sake of the wimmin. We don't matter (but we already knew that). I don't see a possible ally here, just not such an active enemy, to be honest.

Even if there is commonground, seems to be expected that women are supposed to occupy it first (cannon-fodder?). Frankly, under the current gender belief system, I don't think there is any common ground at all.

You see my opinion is this. If a lesbian finds me attractive (some have) and are aware that I'm trans (as well as my genital status if relevant) then all good, I'd happily date them (pansexual here, hope you didn't miss that).

If they don't then I'm not going to start raving about cotton ceilings and gender policing. I'm just going to go order another round and move on.

You can't make anyone desire you if they don't want to. That's also about consent.

Very personal question and I understand if this is ignored due to HOW personal this is..Are you honest immediately while someone is chatting you up?

The lesbian thing is a big issue (and I didn't realize exactly how big until I broached the topic with lesbian friends..they had never mentioned it before for fear of being shouted down as transphobic..sadly) and I cannot see an answer to it whilst we are expected to view transwomen as actual women. Especially transwomen who have not had surgery and such? Because...person sees themselves as a woman. Lesbian is attracted to their appearance Lesbian then discovers penis. Which is unquestionably male. Lesbian turning said person down based on a penis is transphobic..as penises belong to both women and men. It is hurtful for transwoman. And hurtful for lesbian who feels 'tricked'. Unless honesty was there from the start during which a lesbian who did not want a person with a penis would have walked away. However, in transwoman giving such honesty...they are accepting that they are not indeed the same as other women?

Sorry if this comes across in a bad way, I really do not mean it to. Just writing down my train of thought as it happens...

Back onto the lesbians I know though, 4 of them have been threatened with rape and violence for stating they are not attracted to people with penises. Not one of them knew the penis existed until the 'last minute' so to speak. So it was obvious that the penis was being rejected, not the person. So...the sex, not the gender. This is massively wrong. I knew nothing of this until I (shyly) approached them for their views on cotton ceiling, once I learnt of it.

Actually thinking about it, wouldn't a lesbian who was attracted to transwomen (when knowing they are transwomen) actually be 'pansexual'? As they are attracted to the 'gender' rather than the sex?

The amount of linguistic gymnastics you have to do to even start to make any sense out of this is insane...

It's all to the good for the trans agenda for it to be difficult to explain or question things in plain language.