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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Consquences of self-identification

1000 replies

MrsKCastle · 17/09/2016 14:37

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

OP posts:
WinchesterWoman · 26/09/2016 22:31

Maybe silly has gone to buy a new dictionary.

WankingMonkey · 26/09/2016 22:31

As they say in the courtroom, "asked and answered"!

And subsequent posts. With respect, I am more interested in hearing personal thoughts than random science articles that still don't answer these things. You answered this question with anyone who is perceived as being a woman...but that does not answer the question?

What is a woman?

Woman to me is not just a feeling. Its simply what I am. I am me. I was born as a woman. My body does things womens bodies are designed to do. I have been looked down on all of my life because of my sex. I have been groped because of my bodily features from a young age. I have grown 2 children and breastfed (or attempted to)Etc etc. This is where 'woman' ends for me really. Besides these biological factors, and socialized reasons, I am simply me. However I am actually interested in other peoples thoughts on this as I cannot understand how anyone who is not a woman (at birth) can possibly feel like one?

WankingMonkey · 26/09/2016 22:32

Silly, what is your position on the transing of children?

From reading her blog posts, all for it. Apparently 100% of transkids grow up to fully transition. Or something. From memory anyway. Was on the third link on her first linky post. The Q&A part that makes out gender is something to do with ones brain.

WinchesterWoman · 26/09/2016 22:35

See, all nice when being given space to expand on their very special view of the way. But then...well quam omnia.

Given an inch, and deciding to take a mile with some very rude comments.

Felascloak · 26/09/2016 22:37

I want to know what happened to transmum.

Miffer · 26/09/2016 22:38

When did it get to be such a fucking mess? Seriously, 5 years ago this did not seem like an issue. I had shared facilities with transwomen and was totally fine with it. I still am in fact.

They hate being a man. They go to extreme lengths to escape their male status. How the can that be met with anything other than compassion?

Now it seems a man who decides they like watching lesbians is a woman. Any woman who questions this is a bigot. You have a somebody suggesting they are "widening the band width of being a woman" by identifying as a woman and growing a beard. Go and widen the fucking bandwidth of being a man, maybe then any boy who likes doing his nails and playing with dolls won't feel the need to reject his fucking body.

Did this happen because of mass media and consumer culture? When I was a little girl there were gendered toys but not really that much gendered media. That isn't to say it was some golden age for children but I seem to remember even clothes being more gender neutral. Also there seemed to simply be a lot less "stuff" for kids ergo less stuff to be gendered. For example I never had specific child cutlery or crockery (I mean I assume I did as a baby but not so as I can remember). My sons school has a facebook page and they put pictures of each class up in the first week of term. Of around 75 girls only 2 were wearing pants. We were allowed to wear pants in year 8 and it was roughly evenly split (I actually dug out some old school photos to check this).

Anyway sorry for that of consciousness at the end.

GarlicMist · 26/09/2016 22:38

Why would you focus on gender as a trans thing and not join with feminists to eliminate the proscription of gender roles so that you could be happy with both your sex and your personality?

So good, she said it a third time :) It's my persistent point of irresolution with this whole caboodle.

This is a quote from my friend Helen, who is male:

It’s not 'because we are actually women' that makes it OK to be who we are. We are all valid and worthy and perfect however we are regardless of our sex. Our personality, our choices, our empathies and our identities are worthy even if they are on the wrong side of the [gender] line. The line is made up. It’s not the natural order. Men can be anything. Women can be anything.

My position exactly: What's wrong with being who you are - all of it, personality, sexuality, 'gender', bio sex, fat ankles, the lot?

She made a sensible point here, too:

... there is no need for the words man and woman or male and female to mean anything so let’s screw with patriarchy by really fucking around with those words and divorcing them from genitals.

Versus

gender is bullshit but genitals are real so let’s say that men (people with outies) can have any personality and so can women (people with innies). So let’s keep the words to still mean sex but fuck around with patriarchy by saying that it’s ok for men to be feminine and for women to be masculine. Or both. Or neither.

If we can stop arguing over the semantics then maybe we could concentrate on the actual issues:

1) Toxic masculinity
2) Male violence
3) Rape culture
4) Discrimination in the workplace

Sadly, the weight of evidence points to a majority of the transgender movement embodying toxic masculinity and rape culture - so we're not likely to see a widespread agreement here.

CharlieSierra · 26/09/2016 22:40

Similar posting style to the other goady fucker if you ask me. I wish I hadn't read this tonight, I'm raging and I need to go to sleep early!

Miffer · 26/09/2016 22:46

GarlicMist

Thanks for the link, very interesting blog. The "what is the woman post" is excellently written, addressing both sides extremely fairly. I have bookmarked it to link to friends who are confused about some of my views on this.

Felascloak · 26/09/2016 22:47

miffer I don't know if you were on the STEM thread (if you weren't I wouldn't bother, full of trombones) but some GF posted a link to this article
contexts.org/articles/what-gender-is-science/
I found her final paragraph very interesting
Ironically, the freedom of choice that’s so celebrated in affluent Western democracies seems to help construct and give agency to stereotypically gendered “selves.” Self-segregation of careers may occur because some believe they’re naturally good at gender-conforming activities (attempting to build on their strengths), because they believe that certain fields will be seen as appropriate for people like them (“doing” gender), or because they believe they’ll enjoy gender-conforming fields more than gender-nonconforming ones (realizing their “true selves”). It’s just that, by encouraging individual self-expression in postmaterialist societies, we may also effectively promote the development and expression of culturally gendered selves.

WankingMonkey · 26/09/2016 22:50

When did it get to be such a fucking mess? Seriously, 5 years ago this did not seem like an issue. I had shared facilities with transwomen and was totally fine with it. I still am in fact.

This would be when the 'transumbrella' widened to accept others besides transsexuals. This opened up the opportunity for perverted men, crossdressers and such to be effectively 'joined' together with those who do actually deserve understanding and sympathy. Then these entitled misogynistic blokes started making a fuss about women being able to 1. have their own separate spaces to them. and 2. Turn down sex with penises (lesbians mainly). Its just a power trip.

Most transsexual people do not wish to make others uncomfortable, they just wish to get on with their lives as they see fit. It is these TAs and perverted men on a power trip that are the problem here.

GarlicMist · 26/09/2016 22:51

'We do what we must to be safe.'

Can somebody put out the message that women's space doesn't mean 'space for people who might be sexually assaulted'?

We certainly are more likely than most to be sexually assaulted, but it's not the defining characteristic of womanhood.

If you don't feel safe, make your own spaces. It took us nearly a hundred years. You'd better get started.

WinchesterWoman · 26/09/2016 22:52

Good post garic

GarlicMist · 26/09/2016 22:52

Miffer - she's great, isn't she?

WinchesterWoman · 26/09/2016 22:53

I'm a great speller. My phone is a selling guerrilla.

garlic

WinchesterWoman · 26/09/2016 22:54

Spelling guerilla
F me sideways

WellyWanga · 26/09/2016 23:01

silly a welly wanga is someone who throughs wellies competitively.

The girls you discribe are not what I am talking about. There are many threads were this has been discussed. I myself told my parents at 5 I wanted to be a boy, I was a 'tomboy' and I supose still am. I did not conform in anyway to societies gender stereo types. I stood out a lot.

But Whats happening in the uk with social media, TA pushing their agenda in schools and the peer pressures from gender stereo types getting stronger, is that girls like me in their teens are then convinced the reason they do not fit in is because, they are actually boys. They are changing their names, pronouns and starting binding followed by hormones later. These are serious roads to take and damaging.

I believe if I was a teen now I too would be following the trans route believing in the influences around me. My parents may have believed their 5yo screaming crying daughter when she said she wanted to be a boy..........

Miffer · 26/09/2016 23:04

Felascloak

Thanks, that whole article was interesting reading (I'm not a speed reader, I read the first half and skimmed the second, I will read it all though). It would be awesome if this whole terf/tga thing could lead to something good.

Garlic

Indeed. It's not the first time I have thought (or said) this but it bears repeating. I completely understand why people like Helen would embrace the TGA narrative. People who feel bad in their own skin suddenly find this answer in the whole "You are a woman" thing. The "Does it matter?" post was poignant. It must be so shitty to be just trying to get on with your life and suddenly have to address all this stuff.

GarlicMist · 26/09/2016 23:11

Winchester Grin

FirstShinyRobe · 26/09/2016 23:22

I think I might be outing myself as proper TERFy here, but I don't really see why there is a qualification of the "correct" kind of trans. No man can become a woman. Yes, I have sympathy with body dysmorphia and a wish to break out of gender norms, but really, it's all ripe for being prescribed with more Feminism (as is almost always the case with contentious topics). It's ok to let it all hang out and say "hang on, women are something other than a feeling, no matter how committed to the dress up you are".

And (really contentious point ahoy) all those lovely trans people you know who just want a quiet life - how do you know that they aren't active online? No-one knows what I really think about many feminist issues, and certainly don't know just how hard core I am about them and what I say outside those spheres. I have have to earn a crust & have people to socialise with - do you think that I just go around saying exactly what I think? I'm English, ffs. So, why would it necessarily be different for anyone else?

WankingMonkey · 26/09/2016 23:26

www.aguycalledhelen.com/2016/09/09/what-is-a-woman-what-is-a-transwoman/

This blog is fantastic. I had briefly looked before but forgot to save...thanks Garlic.

WankingMonkey · 26/09/2016 23:33

I think I might be outing myself as proper TERFy here, but I don't really see why there is a qualification of the "correct" kind of trans.

What do you mean as 'correct'?

I believe transwomen with actual sex dysphoria are more worth of sympathy and such than those who 'identify' and everyone else has to mindwarp to fit this one persons view of themselves. I would much rather talk to someone who has actually transitioned about their views on a few matters, and value their views more (as I have tried to on here) than I would some guy in a dress because its friday and he fancies seeing what the women get up to in their loos in a club.

I don't believe anyone can actually change sex though.

But this wouldn't even matter a jot to anyone really if not for the crossover points. I support anyone in doing what they feel they have to do to be happy in themselves. But my support ends once your apparent 'rights' to womens safe spaces trump womens rights to said safe spaces. Take huge issue with the transing of kids too, but thats far too long to get into and would make me very repetitive, moreso than usual Blush

WinchesterWoman · 26/09/2016 23:34

First - tbh it's enough for me that they come after us and not the transactivists in the first place. They blame us for heightening their suffering and so begin the efforts to re-educate us.

If not joining in, it's condoning.

WankingMonkey · 26/09/2016 23:38

I may be wrong, but things seemed to tick along just fine before the TA stuff in the past few years. This seems to have set everyone against each other. Well...set everyone who is a 'not man' against each other anyway, as god knows we can't blame the men for anything...they aren't expected to budge up or anything of course

WinchesterWoman · 26/09/2016 23:40

Yes I think that's true monkey. There was a lot of 'turning a blind eye' by women out of sympathy. It's been roundly abused by the transactivists.

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