Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

Charlie maybe you just identify as an office worker, Cool!

I despise gender, it's used to police behaviour and has nothing to do with biological sex.

Yes, like turkeys voting for Christmas. You don't care if it happens to you, and you also don't care if it happens to vulnerable women. You just don't care. Except about the man of course. You care about the man's feelings.

I am a feminist. I also do not think trans people are an automatic threat to women.

Lol neither do I. Neither does anyone on the thread, though people can feel free to disagree about that if they want to put their hands up.

But they're men, and men commit the vast majority of violent and sexual offences. Even 'nice' men. Can you tell the difference between a man who's going to assault you and one who isn't? Have you got some secret pre-crime spidey sense? I don't think it exists. So we need some spaces that are free from men, and that's it.

The pro transwomen in female (that is sex segregated) spaces argument comes down to the following:

Either:

A. I believe that transwomen are female. This either means that I sincerely believe that transwomen have female biology or it means that I have chosen to redefine female.

OR

B. I know that transwomen are not female but I'm willing to pretend.

Both of these camps seem to think that they can call other women who disagree with their opinions intolerant bigots…

HR will tell you to jog on and will probably reprimand you for your transphobia.

Er it's got nothing to do with them being trans. It's to do with them being men.

Being trans is why they want access. Being men is why they shouldn't have access.

having a person who is transgendered in a toilet cubicle next to you on Monday does not mean your daughter will be forced to shower with three fully cocked males by Friday.

Why not? It could. Why wouldn't that happen?

these things that are happening were not supposed to be happening until new legislation was enacted. Well it hasn't been enacted and it's happening anyway. Look at the pace of change.

mycat if trans women are women

1. how would you define "woman" (please no circular references such as "anyone who identifies as a woman"
2. what does the "trans" bit mean
3. are women Transwomen

I googled. Looks like Jenner won Glamour's "Trangender Champion Award", though happy to be corrected.

And this, nobody has ever been able to explain this to me

having a person who is transgendered in a toilet cubicle next to you on Monday does not mean your daughter will be forced to shower with three fully cocked males by Friday.

It IS happening in the US, in school locker rooms. Schoolgirls are having to change in front of males who 'identify' as girls. Mandated by President Obama.

Happening right now. This is not theory

For those who are fine with this, are you happy with any men using women's facilities? Why bother with sex segregation at all. not all men, etc etc.

Do you think Muslim women should feel comfortable with their hair bare in front of TW? Because where I work, Muslim women use the communal sink area to rearrange their hijabs etc

I just think none of the 'bigotry' shouters will ever do more than shout a bit then flounce off, because the very simple, straightforward questions being asked of them just show up their case as flimmery flummery piff-paff.

I think you just need to get over it. The world is changing. The issue isn't just one way. There are plenty of people transitioning from female to male, and plenty of men who feel uncomfortable about people with vaginas watching them pee, fart, have a shit.

We just need to get over it and move on.

Which translates as "Women, suck it up. Your feelings don't matter. Unless of course you're trans. Then your feelings do matter."

There is definitely a disparity here.

For the sake of argument - women should accept trans women into traditionally female spaces, without question. Because they are trans women are just women, across the board, and should be accepted as such in all circumstances?

Let's apply that in turn to men. Men, all things being equal, should also accept trans women, just as women, across the board. So if a heterosexual man gets into a sexual situation with a trans woman, and discovers that she has a penis, he needs to politely make room and not pass comment.

Women are expected to just give way and say nothing. Men are not. Women who object in anyway are transphobic bigots. Men who object are totally within their rights.

Seems fair.

Do rape victims also need to get over it when their counsellor is a man? Of course they don't want a man, and they've been assured they're not a man, they're a woman, and they have there being talked to by an individual with a penis about their violation. Is that ok zippy? You want to walk in that room and tell the rape victim to get over herself?

No zippey we don't. And we won't.

I came across this guide for Civil Service staff and managers:

9. Single sex facilities
Agreement should be reached about when the transsexual person commences use of sanitary facilities such as toilets and changing rooms appropriate to their new gender role; usually this will be from the date of transition. Difficulties can arise if objections are raised by colleagues, which will need to be dealt with sensitively. However, the 2010 act stipulates a person is no longer requires to be under medical supervision - so a person who decides to live permanently in the opposite gender, and whether completes or forgoes any medical procedure, is still protected by the act. Therefore post transition, it would be humiliating, inappropriate and undermining to expect a person in their acquired gender to use toilet facilities of their birth sex or indeed be restricted to the use of the accessible toilet.

Any continued objection or inappropriate comments by work colleagues to the use of the facilities appropriate to the gender of transition should be seen as unreasonable (discriminatory) and should be met with communication, discussion and education before the situation gets out of hand. In this sometimes contentious area, transsexual employees are entitled to expect support from management.

There are quite a lot of frightening things in that document. It's only an internal civil service doc but it's on the government website and is built on what the EA 2010 and GRA 2004 actually say. This is what all workplaces will be expected to move towards.

Good luck if you raise this with HR Charlie, I imagine they'll want to send you on a course or something

Bam "they think and feel like women - therefore they already and always have been women"

What does this mean please?

zippey if a woman requests a female counsellor and Alex walks in, should she just get over it?

If a woman doesn't want to share a hospital ward or communal showers with any of these self declared "women", she should just suck it up? Their rights trump hers?

Plenty, thanks for that
There seems to be a strand of thinking that makes me a man. It would be interesting to see how fast all this would change if women insisted on using men's bathrooms.

I really battle with the issue that the trans person can be scared of someone with a penis but I can't.

What the flip are we going to do. We could have fought against a law. But this is just pernicious.

That document terrifies me.

One of the reasons women go to the toilet in 'packs' is because not that long ago, creepy men would hang around outside women's toilets and harass them and no one would challenge it. We had a brief period where it wasn't seen as ok but the cultural tradition of women feeling they needed to be together when vulnerable and undressing remained.

Well thank fuck it did because now men are allowed in women's toilets. And that's apparently ok because they are in a dress

I've just thought of something. Can we use the SJW bandwagon of 'appropriation' to fight back.

Anyone with any sense knows what's going to happen. Men in women's toilets and biological women going to the toilet together, possibly waiting for the men to finish before going in. Women who can't share spaces with men for whatever reason (religion, fear) hanging around outside waiting for the biological women to give them the all clear.

Other men - 'chaperones' being stationed outside to challenge any male looking person. Men being forced into the violent protector role, women being forced into the meek submissive role. Gender stereotypes becoming even more entrenched.

But it's ok because a tiny group of people will be able to pee where they want to without embarrassment.

winchester

We're not done, not by a long shot. I have yet to meet anyone in real life who thinks Alex, Danielle, Davina etc are women and should have access to women's space.

Transactivists have done this by stealth for a reason - they know if people are aware they'll reject it totally.

So speak to people, continue to post on MN (just look at th Spartacus thread - that wouldn't have happened a couple of years ago) and share what you feel able to on social media

Write to your MP. Write to Maria Miller.

We are half the population and if we unite, we can't be ignored. Look how politicians come here to woo us, look how much consumer spending we're responsible for. We are more powerful that we realise.