Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

I think I'm the only one Natwebb. Do you really think it makes a difference?

Giving transwomen access to women's toilets and shower rooms puts women in danger.

However many transwomen I meet, even if I meet every single transwoman in the whole entire world, I will not change my mind about that.

Perhaps, for safety reasons, we should make up a gender that only allows those people to identify in who have uteruses and/or ovaries and/or real vaginas.
I mean, if we we make it completely up, it is not like anyone can be born really being that gender, right? So no one would be hurt by the restrictions for identifying in. And then we can advocate for safe spaces for that new gender.

I am not sure how to call it. "Elf", perhaps, since we tend to not have beards?

Not sure, somehow there must be a flaw in that plan ....

Nat I know how it can seem people are getting at you, but it's hard when you come on as a trans advocate but won't answer direct questions about trans issues. It seems to be

"transwomen are women."
"What is a woman if not biology?"

"That would never happen"
"Here it already has read this link"
"Oh I don't like that website"

"What makes trans people want to transition?"
"Well it's not gender stereotypes it runs deeper!"
"What is it then?"
"I don't know go and ask them yourself"

Not trying to be a GF just feel like this thread is going round in circles and it would help if you were clearer about what you mean

And this one is not you (I actually admire your sticking around when so many posters are opposing your view!) but it riles me when people, rather than actually engaging in a debate with salient points, say "god you lot are awful, no wonder people feel x y and z just terrible I'm off!!". Can people not do it please it's not helpful to the discussion

NatWebb Likewise. Most on here don't think it's right to 'punish' 51% of the population because of a minority.

Nobody wants to see transwomen hurt physically, emotionally, because of the actions of a minority of men. But also, no one wants to see women hurt, physically or emotionally, because of the actions of a minority of transwomen or those using the excuse of trans rights, to do what they want to do anyway.

I want to keep womens' spaces. For me, my daughter and my old nan.

Ive met trans people but wouldn't dream of asking
That said, the one who I said I know had surgery because I've seen the area, she would have been a useless person to ask because she had the surgery, which to me makes her all good to use the women's facilities.

My question would be for a self identifier and I may know some of those at work and just not know

I do also know someone who is going gender neutral but I actually think she's going to become a man and hasn't got there yet..well maybe she has as she is scheduled to have her breasts removed? But she, who now wants to be called he, is still using gender non binary in our conversations, which i don't get because then why the he?

For the record this person is one of those believing in more communal facilities and doesn't understand my perception of male threat - but also says they've never been in that situation.

natwebb I've sent you a message :-)

I would be interested to know, actually.

But I was more intrigued by your definite use of the terms women and men in that context, but with a reluctance to really engage with the meat of the discussion as it has developed. (I know, it's become a massive derail. The individual in the OP should use the unisex toilet. But they won't because that doesn't give them the validation they seek. Hence the rest of the thread).

Why do you give gender such import? Can you even explain what it means without resorting to the stereotypes that feminists have been trying to dismantle for decades?

I'm guessing that pinky isn't happy with her assigned gender sinve most people object to being assigned membership of the inferior class and being handed a bullshit role to play.
I'm imagining that it will be pointless to explain to the hard of understanding that she wasn't assigned a sex any more than she was assigned legs.
In essence pinky, certain posters would prefer it if you didn't appeal to logic and fact to construct your completely rational argument.
try emotional blackmail and insults instead please.
should you continue to use reason and logic we will be forced to conclude you have The Giant Testicles of Objectivity and you will be assigned male with immediate effect.

This will in no way curtail your choice of toilet facility.

Are you happy with your birth assigned sex and gender Pinky? If so I'd go with it. No need to cause yourself extra angst.

No I am not. I am a second class citizen living in a patriarchy, I get paid less than my male counterparts, I am disadvantaged in terms of healthcare, I am at a higher risk of sexual violence than my male counterparts and every day of my life in small ways I experience sexism. I have been harassed on the streets, objectified and deal with issues men never will.

And my sex was not assigned. No one 'gave' me my sex.

However I do not identify as male (as much as I want their ease of life)

Nat can I ask please at what point do you class someone as a transwoman. I'm asking because when you mentioned your student earlier who is FTM you said she and explained you used that term due to being pre op. When do you think a born male is entitled to call them self a woman and use spaces designated for females.

Fair enough , but many others have, friendships have been made and sometime not! However, knowledge has passed between the groups.

This site has always been a voice for women and I am glad these discussions can stand.

I am Spartacus.
K

I think mycat has gone but I feel she said that those who don't agree with self ID won't answer questions? I'm happy to answer questions?

I'm also confused that nat is saying that some of us are basing bio sex on stereotypes. My whole fear is that happening, I'm not pushing it forward myself.

Pinky - apologies if I have shown frustration in some of my posts. It's because despite knowing some trans people and knowing a little a out their transition journies, there are no cleat cut answers to many of the questions I have been asked and the answers may well be different for each trans individual. When I asked whether you were happy with your sex/gender I meant physically and emotionally as opposed to in terms of how our society treats you.

Lorelei - that was my response to somebody suggesting that girls wearing bovva boots and playing football could be a 'marker'. I'd lost the plot by then.

Baroness - I used the term 'she' as I was referring to a time before he identified as male. The second he declared he identified as male that was that. I was very proud of the young people who accepted him without question.

For what it's worth, Nat, teachers like you are invaluable to kids who need support and understanding. I'm sure you don't need to be told that, though.

Cat it would be great if you would just explain what you mean instead of just calling the rest of us mean cows in a pm to Nat

(Hey! it rhymes!)

Joking aside, though, I would really like someone to answer the questions I asked of NatWebb above. If I'm wrong I'd like to know why.

I wish someone would explain how it feels to be a woman?
I can't without talking about my biologically female body so I'm interested in how someone else can.

Nat, my understanding is that some trans people do see that as a marker, I thought that was why it was mentioned.

Like Jenner thinking clothes are important and thinking that's a fundamental part of being a woman?

Natwebb you know exactly what I meant. I didn't suggest it at all. I said if you're a woman who wants to wear bovver boots go ahead - you don't need to say you're male.

There is no way I'm pushing stereotypes - you are deliberately reading that wrong.

I'm saying all I ever see as a reason for trans is - stereotypes. People knowing they were girls not boys because they wanted to play with prams. Nail varnish. Hair. Presentation. Passing. Nobody has ever said they 'feel like' a woman, or a man, without using stereotypes. You know this and you know that's what I meant. Your fake disdain is, well a little desperate.

So, apart from stereotypes and 'i just know' - what is there? My God, why is that such a hard question to answer?

Lorelei - that was my response to somebody suggesting that girls wearing bovva boots and playing football could be a 'marker'. I'd lost the plot by then.

No, that's not what they said. The pp was making a point that those identifying gender have to use stereotypes inc so use the one you have mentioned along with many others of which you have not quoted.

Thank you Lozza. They make it very easy. We have one year group in particular with quite a few LGBT students(including our trans student) and the empathy and maturity of the young people is fantastic. It's a priviledge working with them.

When I asked whether you were happy with your sex/gender I meant physically and emotionally as opposed to in terms of how our society treats you.

Thing is, the way society treats me deeply affects how I feel about my sex physically and emotionally. In fact I'd say it's the main player in the way I, and many females, feel about being female.

But that's probably another thread for another day.

Why is it so hard to accept that someone else's experience might be completely unfathomable to you, and why is it so hard to accept that the fact that you don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't real?