To think that women should not be referred to as menstruators and pregnant people?

[FRETGNIKCUF]

*This is a thread about the impact trans activism is having on women. This is the beginning.

Don't read on if you're going to whine about another trans thread.*

Julian Vigo (@lubelleludotcom on Twitter) wrote the following.

There is a war on women, folks. The transgender lobby has gone down the rabbit hole by refusing to acknowledge that women's lives and bodies not only matter, but that they are real. Instead women's bodies have become the simulacra in an extended theatre of male entitlement (to be women while telling women to STFU) or they are rendered an extension of male subjectivity such that we now see hairy transmen's female bodies breastfeeding, the only form of female body hair that would ever be allowed in Time magazine.

And now for the latest: we are being called "menstruators" by the same right-wing discourse which seeks to remove the mention of woman from women's healthcare across the USA (ie. now many providers have been pressured to remove the term woman and write instead "pregnant person.") It is as if the last 100 years of women's rights had never occured.

The ironies are multiple. Here you have a group which claims its own marginalisation while working steadily to marginalise an already marginalised group, women. Then you have a group of female people who by virtue of the current transgender identity doxa necessitates "gender dysphoria," yet paradoxically adheres to—and even embraces—the real and symbolic thrust of much of what the female body actually is and produces, a complete opposition to gender dysphoria. Therein lies the greatest contradiction which, not surprisingly, once again holds women hostage: woman is symbolic for those who emulate her, woman is only acceptable inasmuch as she recognises males as females, and women are now relegated to "non-males" by political parties, as "pregnant humans" and "menstruators" by females who reject their bodies yet who hold out for the double-bind of gender in this theatre of cruelty where only a [sic] "man" can truly understood pregnancy, breastfeeding, and motherhood.

The only parallel I can think of is if the KKK were to insist that the Black Panthers stop calling themselves "black", demand that their white hoods be viewed as black, assert that only white people know what it is like to experience life as a black person, and then turn around and maintain that black people are just a group of entitled, bio-essentialist racists.

Gaz, trans.

I think it is being derailed tbh
It started with a discussion about the change of wording around menstruation and pregnancy. And actually (apart from the deliberately obtuse and facetious) there seemed to be something approaching consensus . . .
then it was derailed into another changing room thread with straw-men about changing rooms stopping/not stopping predatory men and a complete failure to address the indecency laws which seem to be in direct conflict with the 'self-identification' push.

I do wonder whether the people behind this kind of thing even are trans

Quite - and there is also the cognitive belief system where some people 'want' to believe these are the kind of things someone would say as it suits their prejudices.

Just because it's on the internet does not mean it's true. Even if you want to believe it's true.

Or if someone did say it, it does not mean that it's a common view. Or they belong to the group that said it.

Lol that you call Stephoknee" her, IPity. Do you also think Stephonknee is 6 years old?

Right, so basically if you have a penis you are a man and should use the men's changing rooms.

If you are trans and do not have a penis then I'm guessing it is acceptable to use a women's changing room.

It isn't acceptable to simply say you are a woman in order to use women's changing rooms when you clearly are not as you have a penis.

I think there needs to be some legal clarity on this, and at which point a trans man is no longer a 'man'. This would save a lot of the understandable anxiety and arguments.

Ego147 the blog post I linked contains links to news reports where several MtF have assaulted and/or raped and killed women. Many of those are in a bathroom. There are a number detailing MtF in bathrooms exposing themselves, pleasuring themselves or being otherwise lewd.

I was clear I hadn't checked every single link in that post. People want information. I provided it. I quoted a part of that. The blog post carries on after that quote with even more links. PEople are adding to this list constantly. I have seen several variations of it.

It is very in depth and covers a lot of the issues around male violence and why being MtF doesn't automatically mean you are no longer a threat to women.

Basically it proves the 'There have been no instances of transwomen raping and assaulting women in bathroom' is a lie.

I've just read through the thread again and see no such "consensus". Winnie.

That's it. Maybe I've veered into tin foil hat territory, but I can easily imagine a bunch of MRAs laughing their heads off at how they've managed to get women and transpeople at each others throats. There used to be a lot of cooperation and sympathy between the two groups and the only people who benefit from the hostility are misogynists who want to maintain the status quo.

Genuine question. Could a man, who looked like, dressed like and sounded like a man, simply say he was a woman and go into a women's changing rooms and strip?

Moosa there was legal clarity on this. It was a gender recognition certificate which said you could be legally recognised as the opposite sex if you met certain criteria (eg lived as the opposite sex for 2 years; had had surgery; been diagnosed with gender dysphoria).
Recently though there has been a concerted push by a well-funded and vocal trans lobby (NATALT) for this to change to self-identification which removes any of the criteria above and rests on the individual saying they identify as the opposite sex.

Yes, moosa, I would imagine so as people are so terrified of being branded transphobic.

As Winnie says though, the law gives some clarity about trans status, but that is under threat and I think people are risk averse and err on the side of caution in these things. So it is perfectly possible that any old man who felt like it could do this and if challenged claim to be a trans woman.

Personally I love my personhood being reduced to a bodily function.

Am writing to Andrex to request they refer to their customers properly as defaecators forthwith.

YY Hairy!

Can I just ask why people are so bloody scared of seeing/their children seeing penises in changing rooms? You know you don't have to look right? I really hope you aren't staring at passing women in changing rooms either.

You also realise that in many countries (especially in Europe) places like changing rooms in sports centres and spas are unisex and often you are expected to be naked? Yeah, and weirdly people aren't found lying around in pools of blood on a minute by minute basis in Finnish saunas. How odd!

what about Germany Seryph? Any issues there?

Seryph
Honestly, this is the argument you are making? Finnish saunas? Tell you what, your and your daughter can be exposed to if you don't mind. Me? no thanks

You really don't have a clue about this Seryph, do you?

Seryph of course you can ask but since the rest of your post went on to display a complete lack of understanding of the cultural and legal differences between the UK and other parts of Europe, I wouldn't be surprised if no-one takes the time to answer you. Sometimes the difference in knowledge bases is too far to bridge in MN posts.

So we are to be defined by the fact you menstruate or not? Will it have to be declared on forms.

This is the sort of response that concerns me. A US organisation talking about tampon tax chooses to refer to menstruators, and suddenly it's going to become law all over the world that women declare whether they menstruate or not. It just isn't going to happen, and it's pure scaremongering.

So you want teenage boys in the changing room with your daughters? Or fully cocked men with you in the gym changing rooms?

Where the hell did anyone say this? And what on earth has it got to do with PP using the term "menstruators" for people using tampons?

Do we think the language has been changed to 'menstruators' because Planned Parenthood are worried about offending women who don't menstruate? Or is it more likely that they changed the wording because a very vocal and highly funded minority are putting pressure on Planned Parenthood to police their language so it doesn't offend transwomen ie born male but now 'idenitfy' as a woman?

How about a third possibility? That it's a somewhat cack-handed and crass attempt on their part to define the people who are most likely to be concerned about the tax on tampons?

I don't agree that they were not trying to pander to the trans lobby. As I and pp have said similar language has been used to erase biological women as a meaningful category. And this is all part of a larger whole. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, so yes the safe spaces issue is also relevant. Particularly when taking about menstruation as a natural female bodily function.

Having heard both sides of the argument I must say I agree with the people voicing their concern....

I think the criteria is fine as it is. I have no problem sharing a changing room with a transgender person who has lived as a woman and has had gender reassignment surgery.

I do object to sharing a changing room with a man who says he is a woman so therefore should be allowed in. This is unacceptable on a number of levels.

Lucia are you familiar with the sexual offence indecent exposure? And that currently a naked man in a female changing room is indeed indecent exposure? Apparently that was considered enough of a problem to create law around it. And yet now it isn't. Can anyone explain why?

Can you refer me to the Green Paper proposing the abolition of the offence of indecent exposure?

Where the US goes we follow

I give you:

Sidewalks, elevators, cellphones
Gun laws
Capital punishment

Yes, we follow the US slavishly in all things, don't we?

I might ask my transgender friend their views. I'm not sure if she's had surgery and have never/would never think to ask. She would never be a threat to anyone though and I'm assuming uses the female changing rooms?