Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To think that women should not be referred to as menstruators and pregnant people?

380 replies

FRETGNIKCUF · 04/09/2016 07:34

*This is a thread about the impact trans activism is having on women. This is the beginning.

Don't read on if you're going to whine about another trans thread.*

Julian Vigo (@lubelleludotcom on Twitter) wrote the following.

There is a war on women, folks. The transgender lobby has gone down the rabbit hole by refusing to acknowledge that women's lives and bodies not only matter, but that they are real. Instead women's bodies have become the simulacra in an extended theatre of male entitlement (to be women while telling women to STFU) or they are rendered an extension of male subjectivity such that we now see hairy transmen's female bodies breastfeeding, the only form of female body hair that would ever be allowed in Time magazine.

And now for the latest: we are being called "menstruators" by the same right-wing discourse which seeks to remove the mention of woman from women's healthcare across the USA (ie. now many providers have been pressured to remove the term woman and write instead "pregnant person.") It is as if the last 100 years of women's rights had never occured.

The ironies are multiple. Here you have a group which claims its own marginalisation while working steadily to marginalise an already marginalised group, women. Then you have a group of female people who by virtue of the current transgender identity doxa necessitates "gender dysphoria," yet paradoxically adheres to—and even embraces—the real and symbolic thrust of much of what the female body actually is and produces, a complete opposition to gender dysphoria. Therein lies the greatest contradiction which, not surprisingly, once again holds women hostage: woman is symbolic for those who emulate her, woman is only acceptable inasmuch as she recognises males as females, and women are now relegated to "non-males" by political parties, as "pregnant humans" and "menstruators" by females who reject their bodies yet who hold out for the double-bind of gender in this theatre of cruelty where only a [sic] "man" can truly understood pregnancy, breastfeeding, and motherhood.

The only parallel I can think of is if the KKK were to insist that the Black Panthers stop calling themselves "black", demand that their white hoods be viewed as black, assert that only white people know what it is like to experience life as a black person, and then turn around and maintain that black people are just a group of entitled, bio-essentialist racists.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 04/09/2016 13:41

There is a clear move towards self-identification, Judy. Don't be obtuse.

JudyCoolibar · 04/09/2016 13:42

Genuine question. Could a man, who looked like, dressed like and sounded like a man, simply say he was a woman and go into a women's changing rooms and strip?

No. Section 66 Sexual Offences Act 2003.

Moosa · 04/09/2016 13:44

But my transgender friend has been married to a man for the past 10 years so I guess it's slightly different?

venusinscorpio · 04/09/2016 13:44

And if he claimed to be a trans woman? Do you think every gym, swimming pool etc would challenge him?

JudyCoolibar · 04/09/2016 13:46

"A clear move towards". Not quite the same as "Men are allowed to go into women's changing rooms and expose themselves freely", is it?

venusinscorpio · 04/09/2016 13:47

See my other post.

FrameyMcFrame · 04/09/2016 14:00

My only experience of all this was when I commented on a Facebook post about bathrooms in a school.

A transwoman (friend of a friend) called me a 'fucking TERF' and told me to never post again and that I wasn't welcome anywhere.

I was really shocked and upset by it tbh. Since then I've read a bit about it and become more and more angry,

FRETGNIKCUF · 04/09/2016 14:09

I know of a woman whose daughter, 10, and friends went swimming and a transwoman with penis undressed in the ladies changing room in front of them.

This is not about transwomen being a bunch of perverts, it's about removing protection for women and girls where the risk to their comfort and safety is greater.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 04/09/2016 14:14

No quite, Fret. But it suits the agenda of some of the people on this thread to pretend that there is no issue besides physical safety and make analogies with thinking all gay men are paedophiles.

Seryph · 04/09/2016 14:19

Oh for goodness sake people, I was only saying that I don't find penises scary, and have no problem with them. Yes of course people who attack other people should be punished and everyone has a right to be comfortable.
Quite a few pools here in Glasgow just have unisex changing, everyone gets a cubicle. My nearest one the changing room is open to the pool and there is a glass wall and doors that lead to the information desk.

I already commented on the 'menstruators' issue. And no, I don't agree with it at all!

I know trans people, perfectly normal people who happen to be transgender. I've also met total loons. Just as I have vegans, or Christians or whatever. Just calm down people.

VestalVirgin · 04/09/2016 14:24

I know trans people, perfectly normal people who happen to be transgender. I've also met total loons. Just as I have vegans, or Christians or whatever. Just calm down people.

Male vegans and Christians don't demand access to women's changing rooms, toilets and showers, though.

Rest assured, if they did, I would be just as opposed to them being there as I am to male transpeople being there.

OlennasWimple · 04/09/2016 14:34

I posted this on the other thread in relation to the Planned Parenthood tweet about "menstruators", and I know this thread has moved on but....

TBF to Planned Parenthood, they have no qualms in naming female body parts in various places on their website, including here for example, with no "front holes" or any such nonsense. So I'm inclined to be charitable to whoever is running their Twitter feed and say that they are using a shorthand of "menstruators" to mean "women who have need of feminine hygiene products".

There's possibly also something about it being an American organisation, as terminology over here can be a lot blunter to our UK ears (black and white people, for example, are called "blacks and whites").

Planned Parenthood is also under such invidious and sustained attack from a number of powerful lobby groups, that I wouldn't completely blame them if they were trying to avoid opening up a new front of attack from TRAs. Though I would be very amused to see TRAs with placards on the pavement demonstrating outside PP buildings, stood next to the more usual elderly men and women with pictures of foetuses and the Virgin Mary Smile

OlennasWimple · 04/09/2016 14:42

PLanned Parenthood is very firmly not "anti-women". It is, however, repeatedly under attack in the US, both from the GOP who lobby for its federal funding to be removed, and literally in Colorado last year when people were murdered by an evangelical Christian opposing their provision of sexual and reproductive health services.

venusinscorpio · 04/09/2016 14:47

No, I don't have a problem with Planned Parenthood as an organisation at all. I believe the individual tweeter was at least in part trying to pander to TRAs as this kind of language around women's biological issues is becoming more common. I agree with other pp that it was crass and misjudged. I sympathise with PP re the twitter storm etc. But I do think it highlights the wider issue.

ClaudiaWankleman · 04/09/2016 14:52

Venus No quite, Fret. But it suits the agenda of some of the people on this thread to pretend that there is no issue besides physical safety and make analogies with thinking all gay men are paedophiles

It does sometimes sound it though. The 'agenda', teenage boys in changing rooms attacking daughters etc. Similar tactics as the anti LGB lobby.

venusinscorpio · 04/09/2016 14:55

You have very selective comprehension of the issues involved, Claudia. Plenty of people have said it's also about boundaries, dignity and privacy. Do you think we should do away with sex segregated spaces entirely?

VeniVidiVickiQV · 04/09/2016 14:59

Personally, I'm not over the moon at being referred to as a bodily function, thanks. Regardless of what trans people's bodies can do or not, this is a tax that affects 50% of the population at some point in their life.

50%.

50%

Now this half of the world are demoted to the bodily function *Menstruators" so as not to offend the 0.005% of trans folk who might still menstruate. (DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED on the pretend menstruation kits available to transwomen......which is all a bit "kids tea party" role playing).

I'm not a bodily function. No more than I'm a sitting-down-to-pee-er, a shitter, a breather, a breeder, an eater etc. No more than someone is their disability. No more than someone is their religion. No more than someone who is their skin colour.

That this bodily function causes so many women around the world shame, pain, and disadvantage makes it all the more a bitter pill. Such little research on endometriosis. So many women who are having their right to abortion taken away (or never had it in Ireland for eg), and yet you aren't allowed to say "women" in relation to periods, lest it offend? You have to use "menstruators". What an utterly pointless slap in the face for women.

I can see why it might not matter to some folks, but we all have our priorities and concerns and politics, and just because this is it's not yours, doesn't mean the consequences are no less real for so many people - it just means you don't care about them. Your prerogative as much as mine.

ClaudiaWankleman · 04/09/2016 15:01

I'm not being selective. I said 'sometimes'. The thing is, the hyperbole and frenzied posts are the ones that stick in people's minds and end up representing all of you.

To be honest I do support getting rid of gendered spaces, at least physical ones. I don't really understand why toilets need to be reserved for one sex and I would much rather change in a cubicle anyway. I don't have any experience in a support space (like a rape support meeting/ similar) so I don't feel like I could make an informed decision about that.

venusinscorpio · 04/09/2016 15:07

You seem to be under a mistaken impression that people care what you personally think of their posts. I don't expect you to care about what I think yours say about you, and I certainly don't give a single flying fuck what you think about mine.

I'd hazard a guess that your view about sex segregated spaces is fairly niche, and that trans people don't wish to do away with them any more than anyone else.

Bambambini · 04/09/2016 15:16

I've used mix sex dorms, bathrooms and showers. Usually ok, had some men make me feel uncomfortable as i was brushing my teeth and they crowded round me to watch. Saw a guys hairy arse through a gap in the shower curtain next to me which felt a wee bit weird and awkward. Worried about me farting loudly when i had a strange man in the bunk below me but he helpfully helped push me up on my bunk when i couldn't climb up.

Looking back i'd have preferred to have female showers and dorms Etc though. At leadt it was my choice to use places that had mixed facilities.

ClaudiaWankleman · 04/09/2016 15:19

This is a discussion about why some women's views seem to be being steamrollered over and I just told you why I think that could be: that the argument is coming across as crazy.

I now feel vindicated regarding you.

ClaudiaWankleman · 04/09/2016 15:24

I also don't think my views are particularly niche. A school near me has introduced individual toilet cubicles for all students, the reasoning not being anything to do with trans students but because they are more comfortable for students and reduce bullying. Why is a toilet always gendered?

venusinscorpio · 04/09/2016 15:27

No it's coming across as crazy to you. But nice dig you got in at me.

venusinscorpio · 04/09/2016 15:29

I love individual cubicles. I would be happy with that as a solution. But while it's an option to make women share their spaces because no one really cares about their feelings and concerns, that is what will happen, as it's cheaper and easier.

JudyCoolibar · 04/09/2016 15:35

Veni, I have no wish to be referred to as a bodily function either. But the fact that someone from a US organisation made a rather crass use of a particular term in a tweet does not make me get up in arms with an assumption that that term is suddenly going to pass into general use in the UK.