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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Is it actually possible to be a feminist and completely embrace trans rights?

430 replies

BertrandRussell · 02/09/2016 10:14

Because I am beginning to think that i will never be able to say anything about trans issues without being accused of being transphobic.

It seems to me that in some cases trans rights are just incompatible with women's rights. Obviously then, someone has to step aside- and if I want the ones stepping aside to be transwomen then I am being, I suppose, transphobic.

So has the time come for feminists to say to trans women "I support you to live the life you want to. I will stand up to and with you against people who abuse you and are violent to you. I will call you what you want to be called. I will defend your employment rights, your right to housing and any other "social" service. I will defend your right to appropriate medical treatment. In fact, I will defend you and support you in anything up to the point where your rights conflict with and take precedence over the rights of women. From that point, my allegiance is with women.

If this causes you to call me transphobic so be it. I will continue to support you up to that point regardless."

OP posts:
ageingrunner · 07/09/2016 22:51

Yes I understand that, but how is it different to anyone wearing clothes of the opposite sex? Confused

WinchesterWoman · 07/09/2016 23:07

Bumbledum I'm afraid that makes you 'a transphobic truscum supporter' according to the list of 'things transactivists are offended by'. The newest version of the TRA doesn't think the physical body is wrong. Rather that the brain is female therefore the body is female, even if equipped with penis. So no need to change it.

Sorry to quote a horrible insult, I don't think you are that. But 'truscum' is the word used by some trans to describe those who have surgery.

Bumbledumb · 07/09/2016 23:14

If you went into the men's section of Marks & Spencer and put on a shirt, tie and a business suit, would you look at yourself in the mirror and think 'I am now a man' or would you think 'I'm a woman wearing men's clothes'? That's how trans women feel, they are women with the external trappings which identify them as men. (I'm not trans, so this is just my understanding of it). Biologically they are male, but their mind does not agree.

VashtaNerada · 07/09/2016 23:15

God this thread is depressing. If I read this and didn't know any trans ppl in RL I'd get a really fucked up view of them. I know this is just one thread but it's crap that you virtually never hear on MN about the many, many trans people who go about their daily lives not hurting anyone. Yet there are almost daily threads about the small number of misogynist transactivists.
And FWIW we've been sharing toilets with trans people for fucking decades and it is absolutely fine.

WinchesterWoman · 07/09/2016 23:20

They are not women with the external trappings of men.

Apart from that, wrong again. They think they are biologically female because their brain 'feels female' and that's biological so the rest of their body must also be female including penis and testes.

I don't know why they don't just wear the skirts and make up and brave it out as guys. Now that would be marvellous. Like going back to the 70s and early 80s.

WinchesterWoman · 07/09/2016 23:20

Nevada - you think it's fine.

devilinmyshoes · 07/09/2016 23:22

Yeah I can't actually cope with this discussion, Vashta expresses it well. This is no way to talk about people.

WinchesterWoman · 07/09/2016 23:25

Do you have the same views on the language used against women I wonder. It's far worse and you know it.

devilinmyshoes · 07/09/2016 23:27

What so it's a race to the bottom?

VashtaNerada · 07/09/2016 23:29

Uh... yes Winchester. I would be equally angry if I read a thread written by men talking about women in this way. Of course I would Confused

WinchesterWoman · 07/09/2016 23:32

Not at all, obviously, or you would see insults here along the lines of 'die in a fire' 'I literally will beat them to death' 'I have a knife, bring one to me' and so on. Nothing bad here.

VashtaNerada · 07/09/2016 23:41

So if you're not making death threats you can say what you like? And if I stand up for my trans friends I must therefore not stand up for women?
I really don't see this kind of scaremongering as any different to if MN had daily threads about Muslim suicide bombers and virtually none about normal Muslims. Yes, some trans people (& some Muslims for that matter!) are bad people. But most aren't. And there will be people reading this who don't have trans friends who will start to think about trans people in a negative way. This is so fucking dangerous. I can't be doing with this any more, will have to go back to hiding all the trans threads. I don't think my blood pressure can take it!

WinchesterWoman · 07/09/2016 23:48

So no condemnation of the death threats?

What do you mean, say what I like? What do you find that's fucked up and could you quote? This is disagreement, not abuse.

To be fair the the post about 'truscum' which I agree is not a nice word is quoting what activists say.

VashtaNerada · 08/09/2016 06:43

So no condemnation of the death threats? Hmm Yes, in case it wasn't abundantly clear from my post - I condemn death threats. I condemn trans people who make death threats against women. I condemn trans people who say that lesbians who don't want to have sex with a penis are transphobic. I can condemn trans people who rape, bully and sideline women's issues.

I also believe 99% of trans people do not fit into this category.

As I have said many, many times on these threads - a respectful, thoughtful, pragmatic debate is needed on some of the issues related to gender identity. It's a shame that when this is discussed on MN though, it follows the same pattern each time. I am very, very tired by it all.

WinchesterWoman · 08/09/2016 07:43

What do you mean 'the same pattern'? It is so very thoughtful and respectful. Did you read witch's post?

Sadly those transactivists you and I both condemn are the ones pushing the agenda and changing the law and making women and girls in real life more vulnerable, not on an internet forum, in real spaces where they should feel safe. Be angry with those people and address their hate on social media directly. Maybe you do already? Maybe I'm assuming wrongly?

Yes, trans people have been biffing about for years without all this kerfuffle. But something has changed, and it wasn't feminists who changed it.

pimmsy · 08/09/2016 07:53

Thank you VashtaNerada,
I'm cisgender and yet I get very upset reading the rhetoric of this thread, it gives of a real whiff of "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others", your intervention has made it slightly less bad.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 08/09/2016 07:53

vash

The vast vast majority of these threads say that people have sympathy with someone so conflicted, quite a few people have a friend or know some one who is trans and say that they are lovely but....

A lot of people admire wrriters such as Miranda Yardley, they say they woukd stand up for trans rights

Lots of posts are about some transactivists, the way the law seems to be blindly falling down the rabbit hole and the erosion of womens rights

I have never seenanyone denying the existance of trans people, that they should die or they are all evil. I dont doubt some fuckwits believe that but they are not on these threads

But you (and others) just keep on ignoring that, keep coming on and throwing in comments along the lines of "but i dont know any trans people who do that" when no one here said all trans people are like that or "trans people just want to live their lives" when no one here wants trans people to suffer or "trans people have rights" when no one here wants to take them away

And its such a shame because otherwise the debates can be fantastic with some really insightful posts

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 08/09/2016 07:56

Sorry should say that i mean that having an alternative or slightly differing view (such as yours) can make the debates fantasic....

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/09/2016 08:12

Vashta, I think when trans people think they pass using public toilets it's often because people are too polite/wary to challenge them.

If I, for instance, spot a MTT quietly using the facilities, I'll act totally normal. No way I'm going to confront them. Women learn very early not to confront strange men, though I like to think I'd speak out if there were children involved.

If there was security outside, like in a pub or at a festival, I might report them, but there very seldom is. I don't like finding men in the ladies, it's threatening and creepy. Doesn't mean I'd call the police, but it doesn't mean it's remotely ok.

Regarding your disappointment at the tone of the debate, I and other posters have detailed why trans activism is incompatible with feminism. Our fundamental beliefs about sex and gender are in opposition. I would say the tone is polite and civilized but the feminist posters simply don't believe that a MTT is a woman. If trans activists demand that we redefine the word, that we stop talking about women's issues that don't include men, there's no common ground.

LyndaNotLinda · 08/09/2016 08:13

Vashta - I can condemn trans people who rape, bully and sideline women's issues.

If the recommendations being made at the moment become law, you and your DDs will be sharing a swimming pool changing room with 'women' like Danielle Muscato. The 1% you're talking about are not just sounding off on Twitter, they're advising the government and getting the law changed.

ageingrunner · 08/09/2016 09:03

That's the thing isn't it? If the law wasn't being changed, and has already been changed in Ireland and the US, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And if there weren't vocal, aggressive, misogynist transactivists sharing their views all over the place, no one would care much what someone chooses to wear or change their name to. It's just not that interesting. But when it starts to or threatens to affect women's rights, thats when it starts to become something that I don't want to be told I can't talk about, because it's quite frightening how far up the agenda trans issues suddenly are.

Felascloak · 08/09/2016 09:23

Actually I didn't like this:
I bet the women just don't want to say anything. Avoid confrontation, be nice, please people, get away quick. I think you are kidding yourself.
I actually couldn't give a stuff about a trans woman, passing or not, just using the loo. In fact I might not even notice. It's hardly toilet etiquette to stare at whoever is washing their hands beside you.
I object to the legislation because I want to be able to tackle male people behaving creepily BEFORE they commit and offence. In my case it is actually not to do with trans people at all.
winchester I think your post does come across as transphobic. You clearly are very uncomfortable with trans people full stop. In my mind this is different than being uncomfortable with the direction of travel of trans legislation.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 08/09/2016 09:29

Please can the people who are finding this thread depressing, or offensive or "no way to talk about people" lord being made angry ook through my OP and subsequent posts and explain to me what I have done wrong? Thank you.

OP posts:
Felascloak · 08/09/2016 09:43

Not you bert Flowers I think the thread was very measured and interesting until last night. I have found some of the latter posts implying all trans people with AGP are perverts and that all women are uncomfortable sharing public loos with trans women erring on the side of prejudice myself.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 08/09/2016 09:56

Ah. So-
"I'm cisgender and yet I get very upset reading the rhetoric of this thread, it gives of a real whiff of "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others", your intervention has made it slightly less bad."

  • just means "I disagree with what one poster on this thread has said"
OP posts: