** Trigger Warning** Child Death. Title altered by Mumsnet. **Student given life in prison with no parole for dumping her baby.

[FrameyMcFrame]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/college-student-gave-birth-toilet-8705537
This U.S student has been given life without parole for giving birth and dumping the baby, who subsequently died.
I feel incredibly sorry for her, and angry that men never have to go through this sort of terrible ordeal. In no way do I condone what she did, but I think the way society is set up makes things like this happen. If things were easier for women undergoing unplanned pregnancy and stigmas were removed, tragic things like this just wouldn't happen. Why should this person have to suffer for the rest of her life, she's literally just a kid herself.

I agree with lass. A life term should be reserved for the likes of Ian Brady.

However I imagine many rapists and violent men and women were mentally ill or on drugs or drunk when they committed their crimes. Many male and female criminals have had horribly abusuve childhoods.

However their backgrounds may explain but not excuse their crime.

She should serve time but it's such a tragedy for the baby and the mother whose life is wasted.

I think that's a bit unfair, Eddie. Almost everyone is appalled by the sentence. But there is a limit to my empathy, a point when i just I think have to accept that some people do awful things. And a woman without (known) illness, with access to abortion and counselling, who murders a baby so horrifically - this is beyond my point. Even as a committed feminist who has given birth. I am not a hanger and a flogger and this is a terribly sad case. But I can't do the excusing of behaviour for this one - I just don't understandz

*understand it

I think the opprobrium for this murderer is coming from people's empathy for her baby. I don't think anyone has called for hanging flogging either.

There is an argument that life with no prospect of release is cruel and unusual, which is an argument I have time for and understand. However that's a universal applicable to all criminals not just some.

I'm not qualified to say what the outcome should be. I just think that life, without parole is unreasonable.

And I agree with you on that. The sentence is unjustifiable. I would happily support a campaign for a reduction, a huge reduction.

What I don't agree with is the emotional and overwrought language of your opening post ("men never have to go through this" " she's just a kid herself " society is set up to make things like this happen")

Add to that the ridiculous accusations that the university health centre was to blame.

She knew she was pregnant. She was apparently taking abortifacients. She was in the privileged position of being at a university with all the access to pastoral care that is available.

She was in denial is no excuse. She was not a child. She is responsible for her actions.

I do think that she should be punished. I also think that she should have access to psychiatric services.

But I'm interested in the difference between the sentencing of men and women in cases like this. In this case Man sentenced a US man violently killed a newborn and was given 65 years of which it is estimated he will serve 55. It is a lengthy sentence and might well be a whole life sentence - BUT the notion here is that he is capable of rehabilitation but she is not, or that he deserves less punishment than her. Is it that a woman who commits violent (unnatural???) crimes is deemed more socially unacceptable?

May be state differences in sentencing?

They do bit given the fact this was a felony I think it would have been sentenced via federal guidelines perhaps?

I don't know much about US law but I'm sure I remember reading something about it

As I said earlier, I think the American judicial system is inhumane and fundamentally flawed. A UK style life sentence, i.e. it has at least the possibility of parole, would be sensible. But this is the USA, and in my view it is a brutal society. They still have the death sentence for God's sake.

First of all, there is no monolithic American judicial system. Criminal law (and civil law, for that matter) is primarily a state matter and there are considerable differences in the laws and systems that operate in each state. There could very well be a different outcome in another state.

Also all life sentences are not without parole. The standard life sentence in most jurisdictions does have the possibility of parole. Life without parole has been enacted in many states, and Ohio is one of them, specifically to give an alternative to the death penalty. (Thirty-one states have the death penalty.)

I do agree with AskBasil to some extent regarding the very negative attitudes that prevail in many parts of the US regarding abortion that is reflected in laws that then reinforce those societal attitudes further. I think these laws and attitudes create an environment that makes many young women reject the notion of abortion out of hand. In many places in the US, it is not really a meaningful choice. How that might play out in the case we are discussing I have no idea really, but it is worth thinking about.

Grimarse she wasn't from a privileged background at all. Her Mum couldn't afford legal fees and tried to raise money to pay the legal costs.*
*
Saying that she looked young in the photo was my personal reaction as a Mum of teenage girls. I guessed that she hadn't hurt anyone before because I'm sure it would've been mentioned in court and the articles afterwards if she had. It wasn't because I thought she looked like a nice person or any such rubbish.

Oh FGS. How many times. Attempting to understand is not the same as making excuses.

There are comments on here which go way past attempting to understand.

It is also very difficult to understand why, given the number of options which would have been available to her that she chose none of them. She was at university in Ohio, not in rural Afghanistan.

Lass - even in the UK, with much more accessible abortion, women and girls who can't accept their pregnancies give birth alone and abandon or occasionally kill their babies. There are dozens of these stories every year, often at the bottom of p. 19 in a newspaper somewhere.

You may not be able to understand this but it happens.

Two women, similar crime, yet completely different outcomes
That is because in England in these circumstances the woman can raise the partial defence of infanticide.

Although life imprisonment is the maximum possible sentence for the crime of infanticide, in practice a woman is sometimes given a treatment or hospital order instead of a prison sentence.

Once the partial defence of infanticide has been claimed by a defendant who is facing a charge of murder or manslaughter the burden of proof is on the prosecution to disprove the claim beyond a reasonable doubt.

As this is often very hard to disprove it this extent the prosecution are sometimes willing to accept the defendant's claim of infanticide as long as a sufficient hospital or treatment order is in place.

Although life imprisonment is the maximum possible sentence for the crime of infanticide, in practice a woman is sometimes given a treatment or hospital order instead of a prison sentence

My understanding is it is very unusual for a custodial sentence to be given.

I think this young women might have had difficulty in bringing herself within the criteria given the requirement the accused's reasoning was impaired due to giving birth and / or lactation given she had taken steps which the prosecution presented as being designed to end the pregnancy.

Irene I am well aware of a small number of cases which happen in the UK.

There is a dividing line between understanding the reasons for a crime and falling over backwards trying to find a reason why the accused is not to blame.

The sentence is appalling and unjustifiable.

"It is also very difficult to understand why, given the number of options which would have been available to her that she chose none of them"

Yes I agree. It is very difficult to understand.

Which is why as a society we need to understand it as best we can.

And we don't do that by just writing off the inexplicable behaviour of people who do awful things, as simply evil and equating a wish to understand with excusing.

"There is a dividing line between understanding the reasons for a crime and falling over backwards trying to find a reason why the accused is not to blame."

I agree with that too.

I'm Sure a two second Google is totally accurate as well from what I know of American women's health care services from being American is that it's most likely free for you if are deemed unable to afford it. Which can depend on quite a lot actually.

I guess it's a women's issue because men don't have to deal with this, not sure it's a feminist issue.
I'm struggling with the idea presented a few pages back where the father is somehow more to blam ethan her for not doing anything, when we know that the father can not do anything.
It's an oft-repeated consensus on here that fathers cannot dictate to expecting mothers what to do with their foetuses, and nor should they be able to.

Just out of interest, I googled free abortion services in that state and found that although there were loads of results if you clicked through the links most of them didn't actually offer abortions at all, just advice and scans. So I'm wondering if these are the kind of places that try to persuade you to keep the baby?
The only links that offered any reasonably priced treatment were to the Planned Parenthood clinics, of which there are 2 in the whole state. They don't offer free abortions but they can help towards fees on a means tested sliding scale.
So maybe it's not as easy as we think.

Oh blimey, maybe I am soft but my heart goes out to her. Unless she is a complete psychopath then she has a very heavy burden to carry for the rest of her life. In terms of what she did when pregnant she must have been in denial/ confused/ fearful otherwise she would have confided in one of her housemates and/ or sought abortion services. I think it is also telling that she didn't clear up the bathroom afterwards. The actions of someone who is in a confused, chaotic state, imo.

It is a feminist issue that the judge conflated how she treated her own body when pregnant and how she treated the newborn. I'm not at all condoning how she behaved while pregnant but they are not the same and that is a feminist issue.

I look at the photos of her and I see a young woman not so very different from my own daughter and I know all too well the vulnerability and irrationality that can be part of that age, especially during the university years where life is lived in a strange sort of vacuum from the rest of society and family. Yes, I had my first child younger than her and I cannot imagine doing what she did but I am not her so I'm not able to know how she thought and felt. I do know that in the hours and days after birth a woman's thoughts and emotions can be very unpredictable and not representative of her character and thoughts otherwise.

I also think it is a feminist issue that women in the US justice system are treated so harshly. Hers was not a premeditated murder for financial gain, revenge, etc. I recoiled a bit at the poster who wrote she needed the prison sentence to prevent her from doing the same again. I think she needs help and rehabilitation.

I won't bother debating this issue cos I guess we all have different standpoints on this and can't be persuaded one way or another but I did just want to put my hand up as agreeing this is a feminist issue.

Yours, a proper out-and-proud compassionate humanist feminist leftie.

Framy those 'abortion options' places are seriously dodgy and yes, they just trick women in to keeping the pregnancy. The do not provide abortions

I think someone who is experiencing extreme pregnancy denial and is then hit with the immediate shock of birth cannot be considered mentally sound. The poor girl needs a lot of counciling, not life in prison.

I think it's sad that there seemed to be no safe guarding mechanism that kicked in to protect the baby. In the UK if there are concerns about child abuse, social services, midwives etc can start monitoring the welfare of the child before its born. I have even heard of newborn babies being removed from the parents if the risk is that severe. What are the social services/child protection agencies like in America? Did the university, her fraternity peers or the supposed father of the baby have the option to register a concern about the welfare of the child with them? I'm just struggling to understand how her behaviour didn't ring any alarm bells for those around her. Is it really possible for someone to hide their pregnancy so effectively that you can't tell their pregnant even up to them being full term. I have met some women who didn't really show whilst pregnant but the shape of the belly is pretty distinctive and a give away especially in the last trimester. Either there really are very little safe guarding mechanisms in place or nobody thought it was any of their business to intervene. I'm just struggling to accept that this was inevitably this child's fate and nothing could have been done to stop this.

Is it really possible for someone to hide their pregnancy so effectively that you can't tell their pregnant even up to them being full term.

Yes, it's possible. I know someone who hid her unplanned pregnancy. She told her boyfriend, he reacted badly and dumped her, and she then kept it hidden from everyone else. GP etc didn't know anything as it was a home pregnancy test she'd used. She was on the large side, started wearing baggy clothes and carried on pretty much as normal, while avoiding people with medical knowledge later on, such as her midwife mum who she was living with. People noticed she was bigger, but assumed that she'd just put on more weight. She didn't tell anyone until she went into labour, at full term. She finally told her mum then, when contractions started. It was a big shock to her family and close friends. Fortunately in her case it all turned out well in the end for her and her baby.