** Trigger Warning** Child Death. Title altered by Mumsnet. **Student given life in prison with no parole for dumping her baby.

[FrameyMcFrame]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/college-student-gave-birth-toilet-8705537
This U.S student has been given life without parole for giving birth and dumping the baby, who subsequently died.
I feel incredibly sorry for her, and angry that men never have to go through this sort of terrible ordeal. In no way do I condone what she did, but I think the way society is set up makes things like this happen. If things were easier for women undergoing unplanned pregnancy and stigmas were removed, tragic things like this just wouldn't happen. Why should this person have to suffer for the rest of her life, she's literally just a kid herself.

[Grimarse]

Imagine a different scenario. This woman gives birth at home. But she isn't alone. The assumed-father is with her. He then takes the baby outside and bags and bins it, like she did. But he is only young, hardly an adult yet. He may be terrified. He may be unable to think straight. He may be traumatised. How much sympathy would there be in here from the usual suspects? Would they be calling for a reduced sentence, for a poor white boy who looks like he has never hurt anyone and who has been let down by the system? Would people be looking to pass the blame on to the mother?

I thought I had coined a new verb - to pedestalize. But it seems it already exists. It is perfect for FWR because some people let their political views place women on a pedestal. From this lofty height, women are so downtrodden and crushed that they can never be wholly responsible for their actions. There is always some residue of male evil lurking in the background, poisoning her, making her do bad things, even when on the surface she has choices. If this is the case, then maybe the criminal justice system should bypass women altogether. Even when killing a baby.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I don't think the sentence is fair.

[MyCatIsSparticus]

Do people genuinely not understand the difference between a woman who has literally just given birth on her own in a room and a man? have you all had children? Do you understand the mental state?

[MyCatIsSparticus]

•••The woman in question had access to the above.
Most women in the UK have access to the above, and even where women can't access abortions contraception and adoption is free.

So yes, for the purposes of this discussion my statement was correct.

I'm not going to use this monster as a reason to highlight where services are lacking, as it wasn't the case for her.•••


You have no idea if she could afford an abortion, you have no idea how easy it was for her to get to one. Truthfully anyone who has given birth and had an abortion could tell very simply how incredibly difficult giving birth and carrying a pregnancy to term is. Why would anyone choose that option and then murder? And leave the evidence everywhere? It doesn't make sense. And no, your statement was a blanket statement about 'the west' which has vastly different laws on abortion and contraception depending on your country and state. It was not even slightly correct, it was fairly stupid actually.

[AskBasil]

Believing that this sentence is unduly harsh and acknowledging that it has occurred (along with the crime) in a context of a war on women (and the closure of half the abortion clinics in Ohio) is not the same as putting someone on a pedestal. It is possible to be horrified by the crime and want the woman's behaviour to be addressed appropriately (whether that means prison or another approach) and be able to see that this particular sentence is out of kilter with how men are treated for violent crimes committed within a very different context.

"She started trying to harm her baby long before she gave birth " This phraseology is buying into the women as vessels discourse. I am assuming that she wasn't consciously trying to "harm her baby" but that she was carrying on with life as normal. None of us know whether this is because she was in denial, or was intending to have an abortion which for some reason didn't happen, or what. But to phrase it as her consciously harming her baby while pregnant, is an extremist viewpoint IMO.

"The woman in question had access to the above."

We do not know this. You have to have money, support etc. to have real, genuine access to abortion rather than theoretical access. You also have to have a psychological ability to make the choice to terminate a pregnancy. Again, we don't know anything about this woman's psychological outlook, but it may be that abortion wasn't something she could confront. Who knows, it's all speculation. Apologies for getting it wrong on the age 21 thing, I read that somewhere and it's obviously wrong.

It is of course possible that she is just an evil psychopathic person with no conscience who deliberately decided to not bother having an abortion so that she could have the fun of murdering a baby. It's possible, of course, there are people like that, but they are extremely rare and it's more likely that she isn't. It seems inexplicable that she chose the course of action that she did, but we can either decide that we'll settle for inexplicability or we can decide to try and explain it, so that as a society we can choose to avoid creating the mixture of circumstances which led to her bizarre choices in the first place. We can't do that if we dismiss all attempts to try and understand, as "making excuses" for such behaviour.

[Miffer]

MyCatIsSparticus

I'm with you. After I gave birth it was like I had a fucking personality transplant and there was a little person in my head randomly hitting emotional switches. I reacted to situations in ways I never would normally. I didn't do anything as extreme as dump my baby in a bin but then again I was having children I wanted in a safe environment with the people I love supporting me.

Nothing I have ever felt compares to how fucked up I was emotionally and rationally in the immediate hours and days after giving birth. After conversations with friends I know that not all women go through something that extreme, but some do. So no, I can't judge a man the same way because there is absolutely no way you can think of fair equivalent situation for a man.

The other part of this is her lack of action to prevent the situation. Again there is no equivalent for a man and societies attitude towards women and pregnancy plays a large roll in this. Acknowledging that isn't saying it okay it's just recognising there are reasons this happens and society bears some responsibility.

[Dervel]

I haven't the foggiest what the precise sentence should be. I am neither a judge, nor familiar with this particular case. However she is morally culpable and guilty of taking the life of a child.

She had a long time to come to terms with her circumstances and at no point made any choice to be anyway responsible. Whatever her precise state of mind at the moment she killed Addison her actions and choices, and they were her choices make her culpable.

Now obviously she didn't get pregnant by herself, but presumably the actual father had no idea as she texted the wrong guy, so I struggle to see how the biological father can in any way be held responsible. Unless he has magic psychic powers of some kind.

To try to hold the man who wasn't biologically responsible for her pregnancy to account for it boggles my mind. I get we analyse men as a class sometimes, but how this man can be responsible for the murder of a child that wasn't even his is insane.

[WellErrr]

You have no idea if she could afford an abortion, you have no idea how easy it was for her to get to one.

A 2 second Google shows three clinics in Ohio giving free abortions.

There is NO excuse for what she did. And it's certainly not a feminist issue.

[MrsJayy]

This woman had choices she chose to kill her baby it is no different to any other woman abusing their children and killing them.

[FrazzleM]

A similar thing happened in the UK, not far from where I live.

The mother was in her early 20s. The police/jury/court clearly sympathised with the mother. She did not go to jail.

Two women, similar crime, yet completely different outcomes.

[neonrainbow]

Wait did the news story not say she tried to take pills to either abort the foetus or induce early labour? I didn't realise that was a normal part of daily living while pregnant.

[IrenetheQuaint]

Thank God we live in a country with a more sensible judicial system, Frazzle. I am glad to see that the police, jury and court in that case had some intelligence and compassion in a sad and difficult situation.

Indeed, it is striking that, though the UK police and justice system often have a tendency towards old-fashioned and patriarchal attitudes, they are generally more humane than the majority of posters on MN.

[neonrainbow]

And someone "imagines" she was mentally ill? If she couldnt plead this as a defence then why not assume that she is not in fact mentally ill?

And again, a woman after childbirth may suffer from feeling fucked up but again, she tried to harm her baby long before it was born. Why are some people so desparate to believe this woman is not capable of murder? This discussion wouldn't be happening if it was a man who murdered a tiny new born baby.

[AskBasil]

FFS. No one is desperate to believe this woman is not capable of murder.

We are simply not willing to accept that it is straightforward, easy and tabloid.

[MrsJayy]

She knew she was pregnant she killed her baby she was sentenced whether you think the sentence is too long is here nor there, women have no need to dump babies in binbags so they die there is other options. Finding yourself with an unplanned pregnancy is difficult but you deal with it properly or as humanely as you can denial and a childs death should not be considered an option.

[FrameyMcFrame]

Have you never heard of pre-natal depression and psychosis?

[IcedVanillaLatte]

And someone "imagines" she was mentally ill? If she couldnt plead this as a defence then why not assume that she is not in fact mentally ill?

Just being mentally ill does not mean the insanity plea will get you off. The law on insanity is incredibly stringent and restrictive. Even hearing voices telling you to do something isn't sufficient, if they think you still had the ability to know that what the voices were telling you to do was wrong. You can have very severe mental illness and still be considered to be responsible for your offences.

[AskBasil]

"She knew she was pregnant she killed her baby she was sentenced whether you think the sentence is too long is here nor there..."

Er, I thought that was what the main bits of the discussion have been about. Not sure what neither here nor there means in this context.

[MindSweeper]

So what outcome would you have liked OP?

[AndYourBirdCanSing]

FFS. No one is desperate to believe this woman is not capable of murder. We are simply not willing to accept that it is straightforward, easy and tabloid.

This.

I am also confused at why people are making comparisons to a man killing a newborn baby when we know the possible effects of pregnancy and child birth on a woman's mental state. I do not see how a lifelong sentence is beneficial in this situation, to either her or society.

[FrameyMcFrame]

I'm not qualified to say what the outcome should be. I just think that life, without parole is unreasonable.

Murder sentences differ all over the world but here in the UK most murderers would be out after 20 years or so. The life without parole thing is reserved for people like Ian Brady, and even then people campaign for his release after he's spent most of his life in jail on the pretext that he's 'paid' for his crimes. I'd say that because he's a danger to society he should probably never be released.
I don't think this woman's crime is comparable.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I am assuming that she wasn't consciously trying to "harm her baby" but that she was carrying on with life as normal

Really? Why was she taking abortifacients?

It is perfectly possible to think this sentence is too harsh (it is) without going through the mental gymnastics to find any and every excuse for her.

[eddiemairswife]

Considering that so many people on Mumsnet come on and blame their behaviour on being 'hormonal' there is a remarkable lack of empathy in many of the replies. This thread has managed to bring out the hangers and floggers in full force.

[neonrainbow]

Why should anyone have empathy for a woman who acted as she did? There is no evidence at all that she had prenatal depression or psychosis.

[Grimarse]

I do not see how a lifelong sentence is beneficial in this situation, to either her or society.

Neither do I, if she is capable of recovery and remorse. As I said earlier, I think the American judicial system is inhumane and fundamentally flawed. A UK style life sentence, i.e. it has at least the possibility of parole, would be sensible. But this is the USA, and in my view it is a brutal society. They still have the death sentence for God's sake.

I think analysis of the crime is good. If nothing else, it might help society to prevent a reoccurrence. But writing nonsense about how she looks like she would never hurt anyone - how does that help? I'd also point out that as a white undergraduate in America, she is unlikely to be at the bottom of the pile in terms of opportunity, money or options. She is most likely pretty near the top of the privilege tree.