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Original poster

** Trigger Warning** Child Death. Title altered by Mumsnet. **Student given life in prison with no parole for dumping her baby.

177 replies

FrameyMcFrame · 28/08/2016 18:51

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/college-student-gave-birth-toilet-8705537
This U.S student has been given life without parole for giving birth and dumping the baby, who subsequently died.
I feel incredibly sorry for her, and angry that men never have to go through this sort of terrible ordeal. In no way do I condone what she did, but I think the way society is set up makes things like this happen. If things were easier for women undergoing unplanned pregnancy and stigmas were removed, tragic things like this just wouldn't happen. Why should this person have to suffer for the rest of her life, she's literally just a kid herself.

OP posts:
neonrainbow · 28/08/2016 19:57

What repurcussions should the father of the baby fave them? He didn't kill the baby. If a man had killed the baby would anyone be saying the sentence was too harsh?

neonrainbow · 28/08/2016 19:58

Face then

MrsJoeyMaynard · 28/08/2016 19:58

The article says that the state she was living in, Ohio, has Safe Haven laws that allow parents to anonymously leave a baby that's up to 30 days old at a police station, fire station, or hospital, presumably with no legal repercussions.

She could have done that. Taken the baby to the nearest one of those and left it safely there, then gone back to campus to carry on pretending nothing had happened. Instead she put a breathing baby in a bin bag. There's also no mention of ante-natal or post-natal psychosis, or other mental health conditions that might impair judgment, in the article.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/08/2016 20:03

When I did my degree in Social Studies we are taught that society frames people as either 'mad' 'sad' or 'bad'. That's why we're arguing over this, isn't it? The court have decided that she was 'bad'. Some people can't cope with thinking that there are individuals who appear normal, yet can be bad enough to do such a horrific thing as throwing a healthy baby in a bin liner, so their only comfort is to view her as 'mad'

That's the premise of Samuel Butler's utopian/dystopian novel Erewhon. According to Erewhonian law, offenders are treated as if they were ill, whereas ill people are looked upon as criminals.

It's a topic that will be endlessly debated. On the one hand there are crimes clearly committed for the benefit of the perpetrator and there can be no doubt about sanity; on the other hand there are crimes we see as so morally and ethically reprehensible that we say no sane person could do that.

Criminal law however has a precise and much narrower view of "mad" or "sad" and I suppose it has to, to avoid the "bad" being recategorised.

Original poster
FrameyMcFrame · 28/08/2016 20:11

I feel terribly sorry for the baby and for her. Maybe I'm wrong to feel sorry for her, she just looks so young in the photo. I'm sure she's never done anything to hurt anyone before.

I also feel very sorry for her Mum who had tried to raise money for her legal defence and has faced online abuse.

OP posts:
SenecaFalls · 28/08/2016 20:15

I do think that the sentence is too harsh. Without the possibility of parole, I think the only way for her to be released in the future is a pardon or commutation by the governor.

lougle · 28/08/2016 20:16

MaudlinNamechange, whether you agree with abortion, or not, to 12 weeks, 24 weeks, term, or any other gestation, I think there is a difference between a planned medical procedure to halt the continuation of a pregnancy (I hope that is sufficiently neutral to appease both sides of the abortion debate) and behaviour that is set about specifically to induce a spontaneous miscarriage as a consequence but not as the natural primary intention of that activity.

It's one thing to say that women should not be turned into walking incubators, but it's another to look at a pattern of behaviour and conclude that given she eventually murdered the child, drinking to excess as if she was never pregnant, playing dodgeball with the known risk of abdominal trauma, etc., etc., indicates that she wasn't putting the well being of the baby at any point in her priority list.

AndNowItsSeven · 28/08/2016 20:20

Never hurt anyone before? Maybe, but she murdered her baby, I have no sympathy for her at all.

Sparklesilverglitter · 28/08/2016 20:21

She killed a baby and there has been consequences of that. That poor little baby Sad

Maybe the services to deal with an unplanned preganacy weren't easy enough for her to access but she killed that baby when she put the child in a bin liner in the bin to suffocate

The state of Ohio has a safe haven which allows you to give up a baby up to 30 days after birth at a fire station/hospital or police station without revealing your identity so there was no need for that baby to die

Eatthecake · 28/08/2016 20:23

All my sympathy goes to that poor little baby.

She killed the baby by putting the child in the bin like a piece of rubbish, she absolutely should be punished for that.

Why not use the safe haven that Ohio has? Why kil the baby?

Sad
3littlebadgers · 28/08/2016 20:24

My dd2 was stillborn at full term. They found no reason why. I spent the whole of my pregnancy doing everything 'right' never drank, never smoked, only are permitted food.
I have spent every day since overcome with guilt that she died, Sad when by all accounts it was out of my hands.

I understand that she might have been scared or in denial, but if she was unable to even show remorse looking back on the events, then I think that she deserves to be treated like this.

Even forgetting how she behaved during the pregnancy, she took a live child and smothered it in a plastic bag!

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/08/2016 20:27

The sentence is too harsh. She would not have received a sentence like that in the UK. It's very, very rare for a UK court to impose a "whole life order. There have been around 70 since 1983.

UK courts can stipulate that there will be no consideration of parole before a specified period and at the expiry of that period the courts/ home secretary can do the judicial equivalent of " thought about it, haven't changed our minds"

She would not get a whole life order here and that would be correct in my view.

It does piss me off that there are no repercussions for men in this situation

What "situation"? What repercussions do you think are reasonable for a man who didn't know the woman was pregnant; wasn't told she was giving birth ; wasn't there at the birth and was not involved in the disposal of the baby?

Pinkheart5915 · 28/08/2016 20:28

She killed a baby by putting it in a plastic bag in the bin to suffocate, like it was a piece of rubbish.
I don't think the sentence was too harsh, I can't have any sympathy for her after what she done to that baby. All my sympathy is for that baby and I hope it's at peace now Sad

3littlebadgers 💐 I had a near full term still birth with my 1st Baby I did everything right in my pregnancy and I also felt so guilty for a long time, like it was my fault

yumyumlama · 28/08/2016 20:29

If a man smothered his newborn he too would be jailed. Don't see this as a feminist issue. Given safe haven, she had an option that did not include murder.

Dontyoulovecalpol · 28/08/2016 20:31

It's difficult; on one hand it's tragic. On the other hand let's not lose sight of the possibility that women can Choose and in fact want to kill their offspring. And we don't know enough about the case to assume much

Pinkheart5915 · 28/08/2016 20:32

What repercussions should there be for the man then? He didn't kill the baby she did

If a man killed a child he would be in prison just the same as she is

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 28/08/2016 20:36

Without the possibility of parole, I think the only way for her to be released in the future is a pardon or commutation by the governor.

Is that likely to happen? The idea of gubernatorial pardons is a very odd concept from the point of UK law and the indepence of the judiciary , but they do seem a workaround for oppressive sentences.

Is the sentence in line with what child killers would expect to get in Ohio? If the child had lived and she or its father killed her due to neglect or beating would they receive a similar sentence?

YorkieDorkie · 28/08/2016 20:36

Pink heart I totally agree. She caused untold and unnecessary suffering to that poor baby. Now she's behind bars she can never harm another child and thank god for that.

ShiroiKoibito · 28/08/2016 20:39

This is NOT a feminist issue - a man killing a newborn would be treated the same, if anything she would have been treated more leniently as they would take into account her hormones from pregnancy,

I'm pretty sure she didn't get pregnant and plan to kill the baby on purpose. there are options if you dont want to be pregnant, not having sex, using birth control, taking the morning after pill, abortion - there is no excuse for murder

I'm sure she's never done anything to hurt anyone before. and you know this how?

3littlebadgers · 28/08/2016 20:42

pinkheart I'm so sorry about your baby too Sad

Original poster
FrameyMcFrame · 28/08/2016 20:43

I don't know that, just guessing that it would've come up in court if she had.

OP posts:
WellErrr · 28/08/2016 20:45

I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for her.

I'm sure she's never done anything to hurt anyone before

How? Do you know her?

Even if she hadn't, it doesn't matter. She killed a baby. Doesn't matter if all she did was stroke kittens until that point.

How that poor, poor baby must have suffered.
And completely needlessly - she had access to birth control, a confidential abortion, and lived somewhere with Safe Haven laws. She could have called 911 and left her on the doorstep.

But she chose instead to put her alive, breathing baby in a bin bag in the rubbish.

She's a fucking monster. How can you feel sorry for that?

Jonso · 28/08/2016 20:48

I had sympathy before I read the story. Now I have none.

Original poster
FrameyMcFrame · 28/08/2016 20:49

I posted in feminism because I think there should be more help for young people to access control over their fertility. And because these issues only apply to women and girls. None of this would've happened if she hadn't become pregnant.
I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, I just felt sorry for her in a maternal way because she looks so young.

OP posts:
foursillybeans · 28/08/2016 20:51

What will putting her in prison achieve though? It is a horrific thing that she did but I'm not sure how it will help and what the point is apart from deterring others I guess. She could be helped and rehabilitated and she is extremely unlikely to reoffend I would imagine. I don't know if the US has a prison space issue like us but if it does I don't think this is well used space.

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