Trans Understanding Help

[Itsallveryconfusing]

Hello.

Please be gentle as I'm not very knowledgeable about this but I'm trying to learn.

My eyes have been opened due to the recent threads like the I am Spartacus ones. I have always been very liberal and believed that someone can be born in the wrong body when it comes to makes feeling like a woman etc. I've come to see that gender is more a social concept.

I've been speaking with DH about this who, again, is very liberal and believes in equality and is pro women rights, although his workplace is very male orientated. He's not afraid to argue against the party line that women are weaker emotionally etc. His view on trans is very much live and let live he firmly believes that if someone wants to identify as female or male then they should be allowed to, as it must be awful to feel trapped. He was shocked that my view is changing and that my views are more in standing with hard right wingers who look at equality is a dirty word.

Sorry for the essay but I'm struggling with what I know is correct in my head with the concept that people should be happy and if that makes them happy then I should respect.

And there seems to be an increase in trans people who present as the sex they were born at work and with family, but as the opposite sex when out socially. Legally when they go out socially they have to be treated as the gender they say they are.

Then trans activists came along and started demanding that rather than a privilege earned by being polite, access to women's changing rooms was a right of transwomen - and women went - 'hang on, no, it really isn't

No - some women don't like it. There are plenty who aren't arsed. Who are made aware of some of the vile crap spouted by some extremist transactivists - and are aware that the average transwomen is nothing like that.

Many women don't like it, when. Don't try to downplay it.

Many women don't like it, when. Don't try to downplay it

Many women on mumsnet don't like it. This is a bit of an echo chamber. If mumsnet was representative of the U.K. population we would have a labour government and we would have voted remain.

No, it's not just women on mumsnet.

Women on mumsnet are perhaps more informed about it.

I'm not saying it's just women on mumsnet. Just that on Internet forums you tend to get like minds posting together.
And sometimes it gets a bit echo chambery. I'll admit I was shocked by the Brexit vote, I don't know many leave voters but that doesn't mean they don't exist (in large numbers).

this is useful and therefore contraversial
thenewbacklash.blogspot.co.uk/p/9-documented-harms-to-women-and-girls.html

I wasn't that shocked at the Brexit vote, tbh.

TheHubbles - got a link to trans being equally violent?
ta xx

I wasn't that shocked at the Brexit vote, tbh

So you weren't shocked and I was.

Well this is back to my point really. Different people think different things.

Hold the front page.

Haven't read all the thread yet but Vashta's quote

The truth is that this country's political and media elite are also virtue-signalling like mad. Aren't we progressive? Aren't we modern? Aren't we with the zeitgeist?

This sums up for me my frustration at most of the liberal commentators on this issue, particularly in the US. They take the stance of being so good, so compassionate and anyone who does not agree with them are mean, nasty bigots. In the US, those opposed to TA are typified as the deep south gun toting KKK types and those supporting are the lovely Ivy League liberal elites.

It's all liberal self congratulation.

Hold the front page

Great so you agree, there isn't a consensus amongst the majority of women about transwomen.

sorry for the rushed reply got to get on with some RL stuff tonight

I never said anything different. I'd say the majority of women are not in favour of intact biological males in female sex segregated spaces. I challenged your attempt to claim that it was only women on mumsnet who would have a problem with it. And given that you didn't see Brexit coming, forgive me if I don't think you're particularly up to the minute on what the general population think.

Sorry that was ForeverYazoonique. Brilliant post

Last message then I really am off.

I'd say the majority of women are not in favour of intact biological males in female sex segregated spaces

We are talking about transwomen. I know some are pre op and some may never have the op. But we are talking about transwomen not men.

I challenged your attempt to claim that it was only women on mumsnet who would have a problem with it

At no point did I say only mumsnet poster have an issue. Just that like minds tend to congregate together and I did myself state that many women on mumsnet seem to have this view.

And given that you didn't see Brexit coming, forgive me if I don't think you're particularly up to the minute on what the general population think

Fair point I guess, but an absolute shit load of people, the markets and the exit polls didn't see it coming so I'm not too embarrassed about that one.

Trans women are a subset of men, not women. Plus if anyone can self define other men are likely to abuse this.

Why on earth should a transwoman not be allowed access to rape counselling? Even (cis) men can be raped.

I'd hope anyone who was raped would be allowed access to proper care.

I don't suppose anyone cares that one of the main causes of death for transwomen is murder?

No one is saying that trans women should not have access to rape counselling. Just like no one is saying that men should not. But separate facilities are appropriate here. It's important that women feel safe and comfortable to do this. It's narcissistic in the extreme to use this as an excuse for validation.

It's not feminists killing all the trans women, is it?

Curious what MN thinks about people who are biologically intersex.

Or transwomen who look 100% female/feminine and do not have a penis, and would be at great risk of violence or even murder of forced to use exclusively male spaces.

Or the many masculine looking/butch biologically women who get abused and beaten up and thrown out of ladies look because society deems them not sufficiently female (despite being born with a vagina and an xx chromosome) to use women-only spaces.

Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct. It's called transGENDER not transSEX.

I'd like trans specific or unisex facilities to be made available in addition to sex segregated facilities.

Yes, gender is a social construct. So "gender" is irrelevant in sex segregated facilities. They are about biological sex.

"Why on earth should a transwoman not be allowed access to rape counselling? Even (cis) men can be raped.

I'd hope anyone who was raped would be allowed access to proper care"

Of course. But proper care for women involves not, at a time of huge vulnerability, having to share spaces with someone with a penis.