Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

To me porn is much like a gun, in the sense people can legitimately enjoy watching skeet shooting in the Olympics, but its more commonly people and animals being shot with one, not clay targets. I personally see nothing wrong with the idea of porn, but the commonality and volume of the production of it for subsequent consumption buries 'good' porn like a needle in a haystack.

Could there be feminist porn? Well, of course. Most humans fuck and some of them are quite titillated by the idea of other people deriving sexual excitement from wanting to see them fuck. The internet opened the floodgates for exhibitionists. That expression of human sexuality, whether you personally agree or not with its 'morality', is not invalidated by commercial porn, but it is rather buried by it. Nevertheless websites exist where amateurs upload home-made porn and receive no financial reward for doing so. Such sites operate on the basis of monthly subscribers being able to download full quality imagery and movies with additional money made via advertisement to non-member traffic. That does not mean all the porn on those sites is ethical however, clearly some of it will have been filmed/distributed without the womans consent, and some of it would be produced using prostitutes.

And more depressing still, consensual, feminist sex with orgasms for all is not what most people want from porn.

Given the huge volume of commercial porn its hard to know if its what people actually want to consume, or only what they are aware they have access too. Clearly commercial porn has no interest in depicting female pleasure, otherwise cunnilingus and female orgasm would actually exist in it.

Interestingly, women who are porn consumers more commonly watch gay male porn (30% more than heterosexual act porn). I have read ideas women key into the erect penis so context is less relevant, that they desire exclusivity (ie its important another female not be present) or they see men in commercial sex as being inherently unexploited participants.

Clearly commercial porn has no interest in depicting female pleasure, otherwise cunnilingus and female orgasm would actually exist in it.

It does exist. Porn exists where women appear* to be enjoying it also.
Like you say, there is a huge volume of porn, and the humiliation, on-screen abuse porn is not the whole picture.

*They're acting of course.

Your post adds nothing to the conversation when we've just seen that a porn performer appearing to enjoy an act she had refused is an intentional pro-rape myth for men to get off on.

You're also missing that the very exhibitionism and voyeurism of watching a naked prostitute onscreen is what men who watch porn already consider a degrading act, no additional abuse necessary to achieve sexual humiliation and subservience.

I've read porn advertising copy and DVD cases, the only thing porn consumers find more fun than sexually hurting a woman is when the stupid whore begs for more bruises and mistreatment.

Felascloak asked and you should earnestly attempt to answer: "How is making a film where a reluctant woman ends up loving anal despite being adamant she hated it at first a feminist act? Or ethical?"

That's why I highlighted "appears to enjoy". We all know how it's made behind the scenes. And your comments aren't relevant to the point I or dadwashere made. He was referring to the depiction on screen, not the abuse behind the camera.
Porn does exist which shows cunnilingus. Dadwashere was saying it doesn't. It also exists where the women "appear"* to enjoy it.
It seems the "on screen & on screen abuse" porn is increasing though, compared to the "on screen not abuse & off screen abuse" porn, which is very worrying.
Hope that's clear enough.

*Usual disclaimer, same I put in my last post.

If you know it’s a lie, why bring it up?

You brought it up because you thought it was a lie told in service to women’s pleasure. Your assumption is incorrect.

I think it's important to examine the lie, not give in to its goal of confusing you about the difference between a scripted act written by men for men and "female pleasure".

Because the debate seems to have been discussing two things - feminist or ethical content and feminist or ethical manufacture, and whether either can or does exist.
All films which involve acting are lies really aren't they? Hence the discussion has been about the depiction of pleasure or enjoyment, not actual pleasure.
To be honest, do the male actors enjoy or get pleasure from it?

And I didn't "bring it up", I responded to someone else's comment!

Your wording removes the intended recipient of the offered pleasure. That is neither the women in porn nor the women watching.

"To be honest, do the male actors enjoy or get pleasure from it?"

No, I am quite sure most often they don't.

I have seen porn which depicts women enjoying it, so it does exist. Same for cunnilingus.

You're choosing to believe a lie.

No, I'm not. How can you misinterpret what I've said so much?
Just shows how FWR can derail anything.

jezebel.com/5984021/how-i-became-a-feminist-porn-star

It is a lie for many but not all.

MrNoseybonk - you haven't been called creepy or a porn apologist yet for posting about porn on a porn thread. Come back in a while and we both will have been insulted.

I could post many more examples like this, but just sit a little while with this one. The rapists forced their victims to smile for pictures while being raped. Other reports detail how the Waseda Rape Manual instructed men to threaten disfigurement to victims who wouldn't smile:

Japanese Shocked By Student Gang-Rape Franchises
The Courier-Mail - Australia
9-18-3

TOKYO -- Young men from Japan's elite universities have had forced sex with hundreds of women after joining clubs which turned them into pack rapists.

The scandal was revealed with the arrest of Shinichiro Wada, ringleader of a notorious "Super Free" student club at Tokyo's prestigious Waseda University.

He is alleged to have raped as many as 500 women.

Wada and four other students were arrested on June 6 on suspicion of gang-raping a 20-year-old female student who attended a wild-drinking party in the seedy Roppongi night entertainment district in Tokyo.

After the party, the five took about 20 female students to another pub where they made one drunk with vodka.

They offered to help her outside and took her to a stairway-landing at a nearby building where they raped her in turn.

Wada, who joined Waseda's politics-economic department in 1994, is accused of turning serial rape into a profitable franchise. He has been the Super Free's honorary representative since 1995 and has reportedly earned *10 million ($A125,000) a year.

The club's main activity is to organise wild parties almost monthly at Roppongi clubs such as Velfarre, attracting up to 2000 participants each time who buy a ticket for between 3000-5000.

After a mass party, members take about 100 attractive girls to another club where they ply them with alcohol.

Then, the gang members select five or six drunken girls and take them to the club headquarters where they take turns raping them. The serial rapists had a manual on how to organise a party, sell tickets, sweet-talk girls and then calm them after the rapes.

In order to claim the sex is consensual, they have forced the victims to smile for pictures.

According to one victim, a group leader in the rape kept saying: "Hey, aren't you enjoying this? Smile. Say cheese."

Junichiro Kobayashi, one of the arrested Waseda students, reportedly said to a victim's boyfriend: "Look at this picture. It was consensual."

www.rense.com/general41/crin.htm

This is appalling. Obviously.

This is porn.

Sigh. I will not defend this. Ever.

There is no way you will ever agree there is a spectrum from good to bad. There is no way you will accept there can be people who enjoy making porn even if they are clear that they do.

It is like saying because there is rape all sex is rape.
Men rape so all men are rapists.
Because some porn is evil all porn is evil.

I wanted to post about how, as feminists, we deal with porn in relation to our sons and other young people we know. But I can not face an evening of vitriol and invective.

dis place i make post no my words come at top

now it work

There is no way you will accept there can be people who enjoy making porn even if they are clear that they do

I'm sure there are women out there who enjoy making porn.
That its consensual, doesn't mean the porn they make is "good" as per the OP, or that the porn they make doesn't contribute to the overall harm that porn does to society - men and women - by presenting an unrealistic view of sex as "normal" and to be expected.
I also agree with the poster up thread that any "good" porn is likely to be drowned out by the volume of misogynistic rubbish

I was thinking about the "porn as education" justification.

I'm not convinced there is a need for this but I suppose if a bona fide health care provider recruited bona fide consenting couples and singles to demonstrate, for an agreed fee, the mechanics of masturbation, putting on a condom, oral and anal sex in a strictly controlled safe environment where no participant was doing anything they were uncomfortable with, there may well no ethical objection to it. It may even be useful for teens to see what real, concensual sex looks like.

I suspect however this is not really what the ethical porn market is about.

Sorry "ethical porn market "

I can't remember the exact details - I think it was The Netherlands. Anyway, some teachers were showing some porn in class and the students were deconstructing it. The same way you would a literary text. Was it believable? How realistic was it? Do real people look and act like that? They also discussed the ethics of porn. If I remember correctly the idea was that young people believe porn and by analysing it they would see it was as much fantasy as spiderman.

The students were then (hopefully) equipped to make educated decisions about whether or not to use porn and what to watch if they did.

Imagine the outcry if anyone attempted that in the UK?

This article is interesting.

not graphic [[http://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/08/25/letter-men-porn-not-just-womens-problem/]] but it eloquently discusses why pron is bad for everyone.