Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

Do what you want with consenting partners, Bit. I couldn't care less.

My worry is that the vast bulk of porn is produced under exploitative and often coercive conditions, and normalises the most appalling misogyny. So-called ethical porn provides the fig leaf behind which the abuses take place. It is a form of propaganda - "look, these nice people are doing it of their own free will, so we can ignore the bad stuff." This is not slut shaming you, this is pointing out that it is an industry which is rotten to the core.

And it is not analogous to clothing or the food industry. People need to eat. They need clothes in order not to freeze to death. They do not need pornography (and please, don't insult our intelligence with the tired old "but sex is a psychological need" thing - frankly, if you can't bring yourself to orgasm without porn, you are sadly lacking in imagination).

OK I'm thinking about this too much but.........

Isn't being told what we thing and feel and say is not what we should be saying, thinking and feeling what feminism is about?

The porn industry is exploitative as are many Industries, is this not an issue of capitalism and lack of government regulation? Yes porn should be much more tightly regulated but so should lots of industries. We need to work to control hideous excesses of the industry.

So here's the thing is porn different and if it is why? All that stuff up thread about roofs collapsing and essentially saying death is preferable to rape, really? We give sex too much power and we give away our power when we do this. We would rather die?????

As feminists shouldn't we reclaim sex and kink and porn make it ours? I am woman I am strong. I can have sex, or watch sex, or not and that is my decision.

Or is all porn bad all the time forever and ever?? If this is true haven't we handed over a big part of human sexuality in defeat. They have won, we have lost?

Matilda we need to eat but we don't need to eat meat. Ask a vegan. We need to wear clothes but not £800 shoes made by children. There is a direct and clear correlation. This is an issue of capitalist exploitation.

The issue is the fig leaf. Do we nurture and support it until it becomes the norm or at least more popular - look at the organic movement in the food industry - dismissed as nutters 30 yes ago and now it is mainstream. Or do we say porn is always evil?

And please let's not comment unhelpfully on each others orgasms and how we achieve them as feminists aren't we beyond that?

Or is all porn bad all the time forever and ever?? If this is true haven't we handed over a big part of human sexuality in defeat. They have won, we have lost?

To whom or what have we "handed over a big part of human sexuality " if we don't embrace porn?

Who are "they"

"Or is all porn bad all the time forever and ever?? If this is true haven't we handed over a big part of human sexuality in defeat. They have won, we have lost?"

Who's "they"?

Lass nobody should be forced to embrace anything they don't like.

My point was that 'they' the producers of much porn control the narrative. Watching sexualized images is a key part of many, many peoples sexuality and that is fine. However, at the movement much of the porn available is, as you say, unpleasant and exploitative. Do we therefore shame people or forbid them to use porn? By refusing to engage all control is handed over to people who clearly have no concern for others. They have won.

Feminist and couple porn tries to reclaim the narrative. It attempts to reclaim this important part of human sexuality for decent people who do not wish to gain pleasure from the misery of others. If these parts of the porn industry flourish emphasising consent and female pleasure then 'they' start to lose.

The Feminist Porn book. Tracy Clark-Flory ( I hesitate to put a link because I don't want anyone to come across something they find offensive) has some interesting points.

Apologies - Tracy Clark-Flory is not the books editor as I implied she is a journalist. Copy quickly and I made a mistake.

Or is all porn bad all the time forever and ever??

I think so, yes. There's plenty of research that backs me up.

Normalising the filming of women being harmed gives violent men the excuses they need to actually harm women. The kind of person who gets off by watching filmed VAWG is probably not someone I'd want anything to do with.

You seem fine with that Bit. I'm not offended by you being ok with it. I would just argue that you probably can't define yourself as feminist and still think that watching sexualised violence against women is positive. All this means is that your feminism is not my feminism, I do everything I can to tackle violence against women, you enjoy watching it happening.

Off topic but thanks for the Oglaf recommendation! I've spent the last couple of days reading it and it's brilliant.

I think you are entirely correct in reference to mainstream violent porn. Your point is valid and the easy access to this is worrying. The research you reference is based on mainstream porn.

However, this is not what I am talking about. Apples and pears.

Feministpornguide.com

Like you I would not watch violence against women. I do everything I can to tackle violence. I have never said I watch violent images why would you assume I do??

I suppose the major difference there is whether one is convinced that what one is watching is not violence against women. I for one take more convincing than you clearly do, Bitofacow. I simply am not prepared to take that risk given the society we all live in and how high the stakes are

I think that all things being equal, feminist porn could exist.

But things aren't equal, and like prostitution, I think that the harm it does to women greatly GREATLY outweighs the benefits to a small number of voluntary performers.

I think that a total ban, wait a bit for everyone to get used to the idea, and the hoo har to die down, then slowly, once the norm is that porn is wrong, you can hopefully start to bring it back in a controlled, equal manner. Kinda how Singapore treated chewing gum.

How do you know how much convincing I take? You assume (more unpleasant assumptions) that I set a really low bar.

A couple in a long term relationship choose to have some sexual activities filmed. I can't see the violence. They both are clear this is consensual.

"A couple in a long term relationship choose to have some sexual activities filmed. I can't see the violence. They both are clear this is consensual."

That's fine if you actually know the couple.

One or two removes and how do you know it's consensual?

The couples are interviewed before and after the scene - you can watch the interview. Clearly this could be scripted and consent may be coerced. These people must be really good actors if they are lying. Research the site, check the credentials of the film maker.

Any sexual scene in any film may have elements of undue pressure. Many mainstream actresses say they were forced into scenes they didn't like. How do you check before you go to the cinema?

The performers (not actors) may be better looked after with clearer consent than in some 'normal' films. Clearly this only applies to a small number of sites and I will reiterate that I agree the majority of mainstream porn is abusive.

The risks and the stakes are higher in porn

"These people must be really good actors if they are lying."

Or you're very gullible and/or have an impoverished ability to understand capitalism.

"By refusing to engage all control is handed over to people who clearly have no concern for others."

I don't understand this. Do you think consuming a manufactured product means you assume control over it and that refusing to consume an offered product is an abdication of societal responsibility to make that product better? Nothing about your statement makes sense.

What you're suggesting sounds as naive as asking people to open organic lemonade stands in Wal-Mart parking lots as a challenge to the hegemonic market distribution of sugary drinks.

Actually, the more women have claimed to love porn over the past few years, the more men insist on rape-filled, feces-filled, humiliation-based violent porn. You think you can consume prostituted women just like boys do, but as the Yale frat boys tried to remind you, "No means Yes, Yes means anal!" because everything girls like is worthless pink-tinged pussy bullshit. The more shallow pheminists try to meet pornsick boys at the top of the mountain, the further up men go to free themselves from femininity's pink bitchstink fouling up their fun.

No means yes
yes means anal
anal means ass-to-mouth
ass-to-mouth means gagging
gagging means choking
gagging means vomiting

You and women like you are the direct cause of pornography's now normalized scenes of ATM, penis gagging, hand choking, vomiting, and the sexual thrill of making women suffer. Your "feminist porn" is wishful thinking that men have used as an excuse to ramp up their porn-inflicted violence and has only resulted in making the global porn industries more misogynistic. Please stop consuming women you don't know and will never meet sexually, for your own good an for the good of womenkind.

Why not open a lemonade stand? Something is better than nothing. I'd buy lemonade from it, I'd probably really, really enjoy the lemonade. Yum.

One of us is very interested in violent sexualized and aggressive language. The images you create with your language are very disturbing and reflect nothing i would ever choose to watch. I will not engage by trying to out do the porn I despise by using vile language that dehumanises people.

You are entitled to despise my optimism. I am hopeful we can make positive changes to the world if we think about what we buy and who we buy it from. If that makes me gullible so be it. I believe the technical term for this is boycott and has been used to great effect against big business on several occasions.

You claim to speak for womankind but many feminists write thoughtfully and with great care about this issue without becoming what they claim to despise by using the language of the oppressor.

" becoming what they claim to despise by using the language of the oppressor."

What would you prefer instead? Some sort of bowdlerised euphemistic new-speak which totally air-brushes the problem? It's only by describing, by naming what is going on and increasingly being passed off as mainstream, that we can articulate the horror of it. Just as the invisible woman project uses quotes from punternet, not because the women running the project hate women, but because without direct quotation punters will lie about their, the punters', underlying hatred of women.

That's mighty sanctimonious of you, but you're too late. You already admitted you watch violent porn when you exhorted us to "Go have a look at 'kink' performers discuss what they want before and after the scenes...They appear to be..."

Mainstream porn doesn't include interviews before and after the filmed acts of prostitution, that's a staple of the violent "kink" porn you're familiar with.

Depends on your kink. Not all kink is violent. Please do not speak for me.

Sillage your knowledge of violent porn is much more encyclopedic than mine I bow to your superior knowledge about what it contains.

Matilda - I would prefer a discussion that does not end in name calling. I really believe if people talk and listen we can help each other.

So far on this thread I have been called gullible sanctimonious and intellectually impoverished. I have been told I watch and enjoy violent porn ( I don't) and my ability to achieve orgasm questioned.

I am articulating a relatively mainstream feminist argument about porn not stamping on puppies.

I'm kind of bemused by Bit's philosophical championing of the inalienable right to watch other people copulating.

And that's your kink Lasd