Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

Dadwashere what sort of results did you expect to see in offenses against women?

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/2015-07-16#sexual-offences

If you look at the section that says...

"Sexual offences"

There are some statistics.... (these are not just offenses against women).

Figure 5 which says "Trends in police recorded sexual offences in England and Wales, year ending March 2003 to year ending March 2015 [1,2,3]" shows an increase in all three categories it records. The text says (amongst other things)...

"It is difficult to obtain reliable information on the volume of sexual offences as it is known that reporting rates for these type of offences are relatively low compared with other types of offence1. ... "

etc and include items like...

"Police recorded crime figures showed an increase of 37% in all sexual offences for the year ending March 2015 compared with the previous year (up from 64,229 to 88,219; Table 8a). This is the highest level recorded, and the largest annual percentage increase, since the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS) in April 2002. Increases in offences against both adults and children have contributed to this rise. Increases were seen in all police forces; Table P2 (296.5 Kb Excel sheet) ."

and

"Police recorded rape increased by 41% (to 29,265 offences) compared with the previous year, following previous increases every year since 2007/08. Other sexual offences increased by 36% (to 58,954 offences). Both rape and other sexual offences are at the highest level since the NCRS was introduced in 2002/03. The latest rises in total sexual offences, and the component categories of rape and other sexual offences, are the largest year-on-year increases since the introduction of the NCRS in 2002/03."

However, rather than expecting to see a massive rise in the statistics on rape or other sexual assaults what I think we can see and read in various reports is that women, and especially young women, are more likely to be pushed into sexual acts they do not want, such as anal sex, and are more likely to receive (and not report) violence like being slapped or 'chocked' during sex with a 'partner'. These women may not even (at the time) understand the coercion or abuse as such.

I have read on Mumsnet of one woman who described abusive and violent relationships but did not seem to recognize them as such.

I've had a friend tell me in person that her first sexual encounter was not consensual, she did not follow this up with how she reported it to the police etc.

I've posted this link before but I think it very clearly makes the case for one of the ways porn is harmful to women and girls in that it normalises sexual violence to girls and women. Ad when things are normalised we do not expect to see them ending up in crime statistics as they will not be recorded as crime.

fightthenewdrug.org/sex-before-kissing-15-year-old-girls-dealing-with-boys/

What does while people made comforting nods of support for each other and their views mean? Don't you know that acknowledging comments from other posters is how Mumsnet works?

There is a confidence in reporting. Historic reports of abuse are up 200%. Many from the 70's and 80's where porn wasn't anywhere near as available. At time when the most popular men on TV, radio etc were abusing women and children pretty much openly.

Porn is an easy scapegoat. However, to move the thread on. What are the answers? Actual solutions? Education, bans (what would be banned), barriers etc.

I actually can't believe buffy can post that story, sillage can post that list and greyhound can post about the crime stats and yet we can have porn users on here still arguing porn isn't proven to cause harm so it's fine. Ugh.

Seriously, in most other circumstances if there's a risk of harm we take action (for example pregnant women being advised to drink no alcohol). Yet in the case of harm to women (especially if we are talking about preventing men getting their rocks off) then we have to have absolute proof. And not even specific cases (such as buffys article and the murder of Jane Longhurst) but actual solid statistical evidence with causation clearly identified, not just association. Which is never going to happen due to the saturation of porn in our society.
So in the meantime, mens orgasms through whatever kink they like to watch trump protecting females from harm.
Ugh.

Joe what do you mean by self righteous? Is holding an opinion self righteous?

Italian No I don't think holding an opinion makes you self-righteous and nor do you. Your comment is really just a slur suggesting that I dismiss opinions that I disagree with isn't it?

I don't do that. I'm perfectly comfortable with people having different opinions to me. There have been a lot of opinions on this thread that I disagree with but if you go back over my posts I have not at any time dismissed these by reference to a character flaw, or moral or intellectual failing on the part of the poster.

To take a random post from above. I'm quite happy that MatildaofTuscany believes that porn was the driving force behind the death of Tiziana Catone. It's a valid opinion even if I might not agree with it. That's doesn't mean that I don't find his/her expressing of it, 'how fucking dim do you have to be to think otherwise?' rude and offensive.

The question still remains. What action do you want taken?

Also if I'm being really conservative a growing % of the female orgasm is porn generated. Anywhere from 10%-33%.

Ensuring that in porn production consent is given. Better regulation overall of porn production. Both totally agree.

If an amateur video is uploaded to a site both parties in the video need to be identified, contacted and permission sought.

Perfectly reasonable.

I'm less concerned about titles on individual porn videos. People can write anything. If the acts are consensual and sharing of the video is consensual then it's a good start.

What about porn that doesn't involve men. Production companies ran by women. Movies produced by women. Lesbians porn produced by women for women. Self production with just a Webcam and an internet connection.

Or is the filming and sharing of a sex act, regardless of the circumstances harmful. No exceptions.

newint.org/sections/argument/2014/03/01/argument-can-porn-be-ethical/

This debate reflects this thread.

I think Kitty has human dignity.

Joe re "Italian No I don't think holding an opinion makes you self-righteous and nor do you. Your comment is really just a slur suggesting that I dismiss opinions that I disagree with isn't it?"

NO, it was a request to explain what you meant, which is what you have done, so thank you.

whatnow123 re "Porn is an easy scapegoat. However, to move the thread on. What are the answers? Actual solutions? Education, bans (what would be banned), barriers etc." and "The question still remains. What action do you want taken?"

I think we treat it like anything else that is toxic and harmful.

In the order I am thinking of them (roughly) not in any specific order...

1. We use public money to educate people about the dangers and harms of porn- using language like 'toxic, harmful, abusive' which says what it really is. (Not language that will not make people WANT to look at it -e.g. naughty, bad, immoral etc.

2. We age-appropriately educate children in school to be wary of porn, to realize it can damage their real life sexual experiences in a negative way (when older) and can cause their thoughts on sex to develop in an unnatural and unhelpful way. Especially damaging relationships with the opposite sex (and even to some extend, especially for girls, with their own perception of themselves).

3. We promote human rights for all and encourage young people, especially young men, not to see girls and women as sexual objects. We may all, as a human race (in the most part), like sex, have sex or whatever BUT one sex does not become the 'sex object' because objectification dehumanizes people and that is what porn does, in spade loads.

4. We make sure mobile device makers, computer companies, internet providers etc, all provide ways to exclude porn and turn it off, deny access to it, Facebook etc and all others must have strict controls on porn images and misuse and must be forced to used them. So those of us who wish to be able to use the internet, without such noxious content, can do so.

5. We regulate and control all who legally produce porn so that those who 'work' (are prostituted) in the industry are protected as far as they can be (e.g. safer sex, condoms, consent, not putting out images of women being abused as if this is acceptable, it is not).

6. We prosecute all who produce illegal porn, all who promote it etc but I would advise a Nordic model that those who are filmed in the porn industry are exempt from this ban. You can read about the Nordic model here.

nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

Interestingly, they use the example of smoking, how our attitudes to smoking (as a society) changed when we knew what harm it did. I had not seen this page (to my knowledge) or heard the smoking example being used for prostitution or porn (as far as I am aware) so it is interesting because I used it a few pages back (equating porn with smoking).

7. We make sure men and boys, and women and girls, feel empowered to resist porn, resist the pressure to comply with things that are harmful for them, physically, emotionally or psychologically. In the spirit of working together.

I, personally, would tie this in with helping young men to have a better emotional model for life, for relationships, which may well see less young men attempting suicide and less fathers separated from their children. Men need support too. Whether this work would be undertaken by a charity, or a government funded body, I do not know. I would like to see it funded by government, personally.

If anyone know of any charity doing such work, (point 7) or of any doing work along these lines, please do tell us.

Not really sure what "...if I'm being really conservative a growing % of the female orgasm is porn generated. Anywhere from 10%-33%." means?

Agree with Buffy and whoever said it originally, porn is "...simply incompatible with human dignity".

And I agree that "... tweaking the etiquette of the conditions under which men get to legitimately deprive women of our basic human dignity, and the conditions under which it's not legitimate to do so." is one where I would personally also say "No thank you."

BUT realisitcally if the culture is to change I think we need to control porn and then dismantle it, hopefully by the time we are really doing this the society will be less hostile to women (looks out of window and sees pig flying over!)

whatnow123 Re "What about porn that doesn't involve men. Production companies ran by women. Movies produced by women. Lesbians porn produced by women for women. Self production with just a Webcam and an internet connection."

My cry would be, why do we need porn! can men really not masturbate with their own thoughts? Or have cnsensual sex wit their own partners or people they meet who want to have sex with them.

Men (and women) survived for millennium without watching women being humped on a screen. How are they now incapable of not doing it when they know how harmful it is to themselves and to others!

In relation to your specific points, I am not sure how many straight men would like to watch porn that doesn't involved women, and I am guessing it would involve men dressing as women and/or men treating other men how they want to treat women (e.g. not nicely). So essentially perpetuating the ideas. Plus as a woman I do not just care about women and girls, I car about men and boys (I have a husband, and a son, male relatives and many male friends) I don't think porn is good for anyone!

How are you going to control how those lesbian porn flicks are watched? How are you going to ensure men aren't watching them! The idea of lesbian porn flicks just for women is not possible and also, lesbians are people too, their human dignity is diminished/demolished by being dehumanized too.

Webcam, no guarantees of anything, at all, ever. A bad idea.

Re "Or is the filming and sharing of a sex act, regardless of the circumstances harmful. No exceptions."

To me if two people want to consent-ually have sex and film it and watch it -it is their business and it is not harmful if they both agree.

This is not, to me, porn and it is not an issue. But even in that situation I would say to either party that the footage could end up in the wrong hands, on line, and we all know very sadly that that may well not end well for either party.

Agree with Buffy and whoever said it originally, "...simply incompatible with human dignity".

And I agree that "... tweaking the etiquette of the conditions under which men get to legitimately deprive women of our basic human dignity, and the conditions under which it's not legitimate to do so." is one where I would also say "No thank you." BUT realisitcally if the culture is to change I think we need to control porn and then dismantle it, hopefully by the time we are really doing this the society will be less hostile to women (looks out of window and sees pig flying over!)

whatnow123 Re "What about porn that doesn't involve men. Production companies ran by women. Movies produced by women. Lesbians porn produced by women for women. Self production with just a Webcam and an internet connection." I am not sure how many straight men would like to watch pron that doesn't involved women, and I am guessing it woudl involve men dressing as women and men treating others how they want to treat women and so essentially perpetuating the ideas. Plus as a woman I do not just care about women and girls, I don't think porn is good for anyone!

How are you going to control how those lesbian porn flicks are watched? How are you going to ensure men aren't watching them! The idea of lesbian pron flicks just for women is not possible and also, lsbians are people too, their human dignity is deminished by beiing humanised too.

Webcam, no gaurantees at all ever. A bad idea.

Re "Or is the filming and sharing of a sex act, regardless of the circumstances harmful. No exceptions." To me if two people want to consentually have sex and film it and watch it is their business and it is not harmful if they both agree. This is not, to me, porn and it is not an issue. But even in that situation I would say to either party that the footage could end up in the worng hands, on line, and we all know very sadly that that may well not end well for either party.

As a woman without a degree, or as a transwoman, porn is often the only industry where class mobility may be achieved; a fact that needs to be dealt with in order to pave the way both for financial equality and ethical pornography

Kitty is so clearly promoting the sex"industry" and all its weasel words of "sex workers" and "sex positivism" that I would not take her word on anything. However the risible statement above is enough on its own to discredit Kitty, for me anyway, as having anything worthwhile to say.

But does she have human dignity?

That question makes no sense. Of course she has human rights.

The point at issue is whether filming and selling sex is incompatible with human dignity. I think it is. She is peddling porn and is putting a certain spin on it.

Her comment about porn is often the only industry where class mobility may be achieved is one of the stupidest things I've seen on the internet.

"Human dignity, incompatibility with?"

I think this sex worker has human dignity.

I was answering the question asked.

I think Kitty has human dignity. That can not be used to words/thoughts in my mouth.

Other issues have been discussed previously on the thread.

'Put' words in my mouth

Apologies if I misunderstood.

You wanted the question answered "is porn incompatible with human dignity?". I responded with a participant who I think has human dignity.