Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

Where have I called you names, Bit? I've attacked your claim that somehow a woman who directly quotes the words misogynist men use in expressing their misogyny is herself being misogynistic. That view makes about as much sense as saying that a pacifist who describes war crimes in the detail necessary to prosecute them is themself a warmonger. Or that a prosecution lawyer who lists the details of a brutal assault on someone is somehow themself committing an assault. But attacking your views is not the same as calling you names.

And that's your kink Lasd

Not sure what you mean. I don't look at pornography. You are coming across as rather obsessed by it.

Matilda you have not called me names, as I said "on this thread..". You have indeed made valid points.

I feel this issue is really important and share you horror at how porn is used to oppress women. I am distressed at the impact it has on men and boys. I think banning porn is not going to happen so seek to work towards a viable alternative. I just can't see how dismissing everything I write as false consciousness helps.

This view is, as I have said, now part of mainstream feminism.

Lass - are you trying to make me feel embarrassed and uncomfortable about my sexuality?

That is often what men do to women when sex is discussed. A women interested in sexual issues should be mocked. She is obsessed by sex and therefore not in control.

It's up to you whether you feel embarrassed. I find your declarations of your enthusiasm for pornography embarrassing tbh. If you were telling me this in real life I'd make my excuses and leave.

Yes I am discussing pornography on a thread about pornography. In real life I would wonder why you were in the room where pornography was being discussed.

Do you think only pro porn supporters should discuss porn ?

Porn apologists turn up here regularly. Maybe it would be better just to ignore them.

I find it extraordinary that you think people who are opposed to porn should not be on threads that discuss it......

Lass i am happy to discuss my points with people who agree and disagree with me. My point about leaving the room was in response to your comment that you think I am obsessed because I am indeed discussing porn on a thread about porn???

I will go and discuss decals on a decal thread and be accused of an unhealthy obsession with decals! I love those decals.

You've said you want to engage in discussion many more times than you've engaged in discussion, an act that normally requires responding in earnest to the points raised and not just repeating the same thing over again and claiming preposterously that you're being oppressed here.

In related news, Virginia Slims are not feminist cigarettes despite being marketed that way. Not even when the mainstream Wikipedia page says so.

I think the time comes to leave a thread when you are accused of being obsessed and several comments later being told you haven't engaged in discussion enough.

I never claimed I was being oppressed, it would take more than a MN thread to do that. I don't actually think I need to contribute as sillage knows and can comment on what I think, feel, watch and enjoy sexually.

I'm going to go and find a decal of a GREAT BIG COCK😉

That seems a better fit for you than this discussion, good luck and goodbye.

Bitof I think you made some good points. Unfortunately I think calling people porn apologists shuts down interesting and potentially helpful discussion.

I am concerned that even ethical porn normalises acts many women don't enjoy that have the potential to be harmful (like anal or bdsm) and contributes to the issue of women feeling pressured to do these things under the guise of "sex positive/kink shaming".
I get totally fed up by this whole kink/vanilla thing because the implication is that if you have mainstream sex you are boring. It's another way to pressure people (mainly women) to do sex acts they may not want to for other people (mainly men).
Seems quite allied to rape culture to me.
So my opinion is porn and feminism are mutually exclusive, even when that porn is ethical.

What Felas said.

"I think calling people porn apologists shuts down interesting and potentially helpful discussion."

Porn apologist is an accurate description of your side of the debate. You are free to explain which of Bitofacow's excuses you consider the most compelling for justifying your continued sexual use of women you don't know and whose consent you can't possibly confirm.

....just can't leave it alone aaarrrrgggghhh. Anyway.

I think I can confirm the consent of this woman.

jezebel.com/5984021/how-i-became-a-feminist-porn-star

"feminist pornographer Tristan Taormino. She defines feminist pornography as porn that includes a fair and ethical process, safe working conditions, collaboration with performers, positive representations, three-dimensional human beings, pleasure and orgasms for everyone, not just men, responses to dominant images, and the creation of new ones."

The words of people who perform and make feminist porn.

Although sillage will able to tell her what she really thinks and feels and how wrong she is.

You raise an interesting point felas and something that this thread got me thinking about.

I dislike the whole vanilla/ kink thing as well. That's not what it should be about. The opposite to your point is the amount of women who shame other women about their sexual tastes. If you go into the sex section here there are numerous topics where an OP has started a topic about something "less mainstream" and gets told they are only doing it to be seen as the cool gf.

Maybe other women should be more supportive of female sexuality. Women should be able to and are able to make up their own minds on these things without pressure from men or women. ( I guess this is off topic.. Sorry)

"Maybe other women should be more supportive of female sexuality. Women should be able to and are able to make up their own minds on these things without pressure from men or women. "

This, yes absolutely, this😀

Mide7, I think you are dead wrong and kind of an asshole to dare to blame women for the multibillion dollar porn industry's complete colonization of sexuality in 2016. As if a few threads where women speak with each other on Mumsnet are the REAL problem and not the multibillion dollar corporate industry invested in replacing genuine sexuality with a commodified facsimile of men's preferred performances.

This is feeling like a waste of a good question, but do you honestly believe that women conversing with women on the internet is a stronger force sexually "pressuring" women than the inescapable imagery of the pornography industry and the porn-using men who demand porn-inspired acts with their sex partners??

Yes of course. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a feminist that disagrees mide.
Unfortunately the patriarchy means women are often pressured to behave in a way that benefits men. So take the report about the rise of anal in teenagers. It found that both girls and boys expected it to hurt or not be pleasurable for the woman yet there is now an expectation amongst that anal will be provided based on porn repertoire.
That's regardless of whether individual women really enjoys it.

Sillage while I'm quite possibly an arsehole, I haven't suggest women are to blame for the porn industry.

My point was that even taking away the pressure that women are under from men, there is plenty of pressure from women to only like certain things. Strikes me as like something from animal farm.

No real need for the patronising tone tho huh?

Felas yes I understand what you're saying but it seems to me that if a woman came along and said "actually I really enjoy anal sex" that other women's first reaction shouldn't be suggesting she's been pressured or coerced

Well its that who individual vs class thing again isn't it.
On an individual level I agree. However I think the rise in anal is due to women as a class being pressured.
I do know what you mean about the sex board though. But equally I don't think anyone should expect strangers on the internet to be supportive of their kinks, especially on a non-sex website. Tbh I find it odd that people post stuff on here rather than a specialist site.

The problem is that consensual, feminist porn is a tiny drop in the ocean of exploitative hideousness. And, practically speaking, most people are not going to pay for it.

And more depressing still, consensual, feminist sex with orgasms for all is not what most people want from porn.

Sillage have you read the article by the feminist porn star yet? She discusses how to make porn reflect genuine sexual experiences. You'll enjoy reading it.

Mide7 - am I wrong to snigger at you being called an arsehole then anal sex is discussed? I also think you make a very valid point.