Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

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While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

Go to her social media account which talks about how great porn is, how great her scenes are, how much money she makes, how she loves entertaining her "fans". That's good enough for most people to deny any harm has taken place

This reminds me of a skanky guy at uni telling me how much the two women involved in a prostitute three some he had enjoyed it. It made my skin crawl that he genuinely had applied no critical thought whatsoever to their performance. Ugh. (He also thought if he bought dinner for a woman twice she owed him sex. I'm pleased I never have to talk to him again but I did get an interesting insight into the mind of a misogynist!)
Yes of course porn actresses have no ulterior motive for saying they love their job and their fans. Not like they are being paid or anything

"That was me and as I subsequently explained I was trying to understand why only porn will do to scratch that itch, not erotica or acted sex scenes ie no real sex."
I think this is the crux of the matter. It seems to me visual porn works so well for those who use it simply because they know that the sex is real. They know that other parts are acted, that isn't an issue, but the sex is real. What makes it work is exactly the same as what makes it problematic, in that someones bodily integrity and consent is being traded for your pleasure. And seems that people are not only willing to accept this, but that in and of itself is part of the thrill? And then we get into the power relationship behind all this..............whether that is male/female, or the gaze of the viewer versus the viewed.

They know that other parts are acted, that isn't an issue, but the sex is real

This is something I really can't understand. I mean, I watch movies for the emotions they provoke, knowing full well that the actors don't feel those same emotions, and I wouldn't enjoy crying over, let's say, Boromir's death scene if I knew they really shot a man full of arrows to film that.

Porn is like, I don't know, watching someone actually die, and knowing that the people around him are not really sad, they just pretend to be.

I'm not much into visual erotica anyway, but could possibly enjoy something where it is made to look like the people have sex, as long as I know for sure they don't actually do.

I can only watch romance movies because I know the actors are not actually in love with each other and it is all acting. If I thought it had been filmed by a hidden camera, I'd feel like a voyeur.

Coming to this thread late but I have RTFT.

This is interesting: (7 pages)

www.mediafire.com/?6lcyid9dchi5bdi

It's an essay by Dorchen Leidholtd from The Sexual Liberals and the Attack on Feminism published in 1990.

These were written 25 years ago and I think we are seeing the realisation of the concerns they were talking about. It's clear that so-called "kink" or nonconformist sexual activities were not even really taboo or non-conforming back then, let alone today, in the context of women's sexuality in patriarchal society.

Talking about violent sexual fantasises reported by "pro-sex" feminists she says:

"we have to look beyond the fantasies themselves to the culture in which they develop. It is not just coincidence that they imitate the violence men do to women and girls. Think about the implications for our sexuality of the following statis tics: More than a third of us were sexually abused as children (Russell, 1984). For many of us, our first sexual experience was a sexual assault. Forty-four percent of us will be raped (Russell, 1984). The environment in which we learn about and experience our bodies and sexuality is a world not of sexual freedom but of sexual force. Is it any surprise that it is often force that we eroticize? Sadistic and masochistic fantasies may be part of our sexuality, but they are no more our freedom than the culture of misogyny and sexual violence that engendered them."

"The inescapable fallacy of the sexual repression thesis, as applied to women by the pro-sex people, is that it looks at sexuality within a context of largely mythical sexual restrictions and outside an environ ment of real, ongoing male sexual exploitation and abuse. In doing so, it turns what is done to women's sexuality by external oppression into something we do to ourselves in our heads. It suggests that if only women can break through internal "taboos," we will have sexual free dom, indeed we will be free. It ignores the real political lesson of wom en's sexual experience: women cannot have sexual freedom, or any other kind of freedom, until we dismantle the system of sexual oppression in which we live."

In relation to "ethical porn" by couples, I know two women who were manipulated by their partners into being strippers because the partners got off on other men watching their GF/wife. At the time, both women happily said it was their choice and they were totally cool about it. Both couples split up soon after and neither woman would now characterise what happened to them as their free choice. It is simply not possible to know whether anyone being filmed having sex is consenting whether they give interviews before or after or not.

Not had time to read the link yet but I will.

Interesting quotes Flora but they apply to all sexual acts including those between consenting couples in a bedroom. Please don't tell me I can't have sex at all!!!!

I don't agree at all that the quote applies to all sexual acts. It's talking about the eroticisation of force, domination and submission, sadism and masochism.

This is also on point from Sheila Jeffreys (only 4 pages):

www.mediafire.com/?f5t3dxwc0nf6c78

Talking about the beginning of pro-porn feminists, she says:

"What I think happened is that as feminists started putting out slide shows analyzing pornography, and as women started having reactions to those slides—at times becoming turned on by those slides them selves —there were two choices that women could make. They could say: "I am turned on by these slides. Isn't it absolutely horrifying how my subordination as a woman has been eroticised and gotten into what is the most intimate and personal part of me— the middle of my heart and my body—and appears to be part of what is most personal and most mine?"

"They could say that, and become absolutely furious about the extent to which women's oppression can actually enter into our hearts and minds. That is the choice I have made and other feminists have made. And therefore it motivates us even more to fight pornography and male violence.

"Alternatively, women who are turned on by such slides could think: "I am aroused by this material. Therefore, I am angry with the feminists who are showing it to me. I am angry because they are making me feel guilty and ashamed. Therefore, I will fight them." I think this is why some feminists are fighting the antipornography activists, are fighting us."

Also I agree with Audre Lorde:

noproncollective.blogspot.co.uk/2007/05/audre-lorde-sadomasochism-in-lesbian.html

"Leigh: What about the doctrine of “live and let live” and civil liberties issues?

"Audre: I don’t see that as the point. I’m not questioning anyone’s right to live. I’m saying we must observe the courses and implications of our lives. If we are talking about feminism then the personal is political and we can subject everything in our lives to scrutiny. We have been nurtured in a sick, abnormal society, and we should be in the process of reclaiming ourselves, not the terms of that society. This is complex. I speak not about condemnation but about recognizing what is happening and questioning what it means. I’m not willing to regiment anyone’s life. If we are to scrutinize our human relationships, we must be willing to scrutinize all aspects of those relationships. The subject of revolution is ourselves, is our lives.

"Sadomasochism is an institutionalized celebration of dominant/subordinate relationships. And, it prepares us either to accept subordination or to enforce dominance. Even in play, to affirm that the exertion of power over powerlessness is erotic, is empowering, is to set the emotional and social stage for the continuation of that relationship, politically, socially and economically.

"Sadomasochism feeds the belief that domination is inevitable. It can be compared to the phenomenon of worshipping a godhead with two faces, and worshipping only the white part on the full moon and the black part on the dark of the moon, as if totally separate. But you cannot corral any aspect within your life, divorce its implications, whether it’s what you eat for breakfast or how you say goodbye. This is what integrity means."

That's me finished with the C&P.

Realistically people who watch porn don't look that deeply in to it. They like it, it makes them feel good and everything else is background noise

Realistically people who watch porn don't look that deeply in to it. They like it, it makes them feel good and everything else is background noise

I don't disbelieve you when you say this, but it does make me incredibly sad.

That people can watch scenes that any normal person knows are going to be painful. Where you can see the pain etched on the faces of the women and those images can still leave them with a sense of fulfillment is pretty shocking. That people can watch scenes of a woman in pain, knowing that there will have been take after take after take of that pain and still enjoy it.

I don't think it says anything positive about society that that can and does happen.

That's not "kink-shaming" or whichever neologism anyone wishes to bandy about to make the people explaining this feel bad, that is simply knowing how filming works, understanding facial expressions and being pretty disgusted that people can put all human feeling aside as background noise.

It's a bitter indictment of society that it is becoming more, not less socially acceptable for harming women to be mainstream. Normalising violence, especially sexual violence toward women surely isn't the way we want society to go, and yet the normalisation of filmed sexual violence to women will inevitably do that. Thinly veiled suggestions that women who don't like porn are prudes just makes the argument for it weaker.

Yes it's a sad indictment that women being raped and degraded is considered "background noise".

I'd hazard a guess that I'm a similar age to whatnow as I also grew up with porn becoming available in my mid teens and being seen as pretty much normal. The difference is that I'm a woman and whilst I definitely enjoyed porn and found it arousing when I was younger, as I've got older I've realised how damaging it has been / was to my sexuality.

My first relationships could be considered borderline abusive and I was definitely nudged into acts that I didn't enjoy and I think that was largely driven by a need to act out porn scenes. I have always had a high sex drive so I wanted to experiment, but I never achieved orgasm through sex acts with a partner. More worryingly, I didn't question this - having sex was all about pleasing a man, being seen as hot, sexy and desirable was the end goal for me, not mutual pleasure and so I avoided being "demanding".

It wasn't until I started a same sex relationship in my 20s that I actually started to think about what I wanted from sex and realised how much of a toxic influence porn had had on me and how much the template of porn sex had been imposed over my sex life without me realising there was another option. It's been a sort of deprogramming to get to a point where sex is instinctive now, rather than formulaic and it makes me angry that other girls are growing up being conned into the same mind set that I'd had.

I've learnt a lot more about the porn industry as a whole since then too and it really disturbs me to think that in my teens I was watching abuse and didn't have the critical thinking skills to question it. I've made the conscious decision to avoid porn now - I'd probably still find it arousing, but the sexual pull is not strong enough to overcome the revulsion I feel at the possibility that I'm watching a woman being raped.

This probably all sounds rather naïve against the backdrop of the academic arguments here, but I just wanted to explain my view and say that I think I'd have benefited from hearing someone object to porn when I was younger. I think someone planting a seed of doubt in my mind, challenging the status quo, would have been invaluable.

I agree with Buffy, it's not naive. Leidholtd says something along the lines that people could be socialised to eroticise banging their head on a wall. OneFlew I think yours is a very common experience but you have found a way through and many other people have not.

Ah well, thank you both - and apologies for the essay!

Yes, Flora I think socialisation is a lot more pernicious than most people realise. My sexuality now is nothing like the sexuality I'd been tricked into in my teens - I was very fortunate to have a relationship with a wonderful woman who introduced me to feminism and took the time to help me relearn sex. I can't imagine that many other people have the luck that I had.

I know this is essentially shallow thinking compared with the erudite debate by Buffy and others on this board, but I have always viewed pornography as having four components: exhibitionism, voyeurism, moneymaking and (often) desperation.

To me it is the ultimate in appealing to the lowest common denominator in humans - a reminder that we are, essentially, still primitive and animalistic despite our veneer of civilisation.

I believe that in eras (or decades) when sex is seen, as it is now to many, as essentially divorced from real internal feelings, as casual and no more meaningful than taking a dump or having a cup of coffee, pornography will flourish openly (helped enormously now by the internet and anonymity).

In times when sex is connected more to love, caring, affection, commitment etc. pornography seems to have less of a grip. Yes, it will there but more secretive, less right-on. I accept though that the internet has probably destroyed any connection between love and sex for ever - sadly.

So, call me a prude. I don't care if that really is the opposite to sitting in front of a computer enjoying synthetic, meaningless sex performed for purveyors to make money, for exhibitionism or to earn a desperate income by (possibly) vulnerable or damaged individuals.

One - Whilst men clearly watch more pornography than women. Stats show that the amount of women, especially under 35, watching porn alone, is significant. 1/6 according to some surveys.

I don't believe it's as simple as them enjoying other women getting raped and degraded. I don't believe the general viewer of porn thinks like that man or woman.

Be it real or not the casual porn viewer doesn't see someone in pain. They see a person enjoying themselves. That's what I see when I watch it.

But now you know. You know that the women being filmed are suffering.

You no longer have the ability to say you don't know that.

From this point on, any porn you watch, you're watching despite knowing this, and any enjoyment you get out of it, you now know will be enjoyment got from the suffering of a woman/women.

That knowledge is, or at least it should be, a game changer.

That knowledge is, or at least it should be, a game changer.

One would like to think so Xenophile. But I don't think the ability to see beyond what they want to see, or a sense of compassion, are the strongest attributes of porn fans.

MatildaOfTuscany re "Actually I do object to being called a "prude" in this context, because in this context it becomes a political issue." That's an excellent point. What I meant was I am not simply offended by the 'title' but if anything further is extrapolated from that then yes, I would disagree. It's a wrong. Especially if my views are disregarded for that reason it's the opposite side but the same coin as the views of 'sluts' don't count.

bitof I have said I think it is weird to enjoy watching porn but not said 'you' are weird' - I really hope that has come across I don't want to label anyone. I am trying not to make this at all personal and have no desire to pick on anyone at all.

I can't think of a better word for 'weird', but I will try to me it is 'incomprehensible' to enjoy watching women being abused or violated, persuaded to have sex against their will or either for real or pretending to be penetrated in ways that are degrading or humiliating.

Because to me, to some degree, all porn does that, it is in the nature of porn, as it is in the nature of prostitution to de-humanise people (mainly women, but men too), those who 'sell' sex, and those who 'buy' it. These are my views but I am talking about actions and not specifically about people individually.

Many people do all kinds of things I may not approve of or agree with but I try to see the people as themselves and not just a collection of their actions, if that makes sense.

Lass, re "...someone mentioned being uncomfortable with the idea that the men she sees around here everyday are porn users." That was me.

bitof re "2Bitofacow Fri 09-Sep-16 09:47:06
Italian "No one, absolutely no one, has said anything of the sort." That is why I used the word inference."

Well I really hope I have not implied anything personally unpleasant, that was not my intent.

Grimble - Who are porn fans or porn watchers? What are there attributes. Can someone enjoy porn and be a nurse, a carer work, a charity worker a Doctor. I think it's sweeping to suggest that they lack compassion.

Xenophile - I don't know, because that's not what I'm watching. You may tell me that the woman is suffering. That's not what I see. That's not what I watch.

flora great quotes, very interesting. I'm shocked by those statistics. When put like that, I can understand the perspective that women have internalised and eroticism violence and domination. It's like the sex version of Stockholm syndrome.

Oneflew I found your post very interesting too. I think I was very lucky that my first sexual relationship was with a lovely guy who just wanted to do whatever I wanted to do. We were together a gew years so kind of learnt together. But I definitely have been on the wrong end of "slut shaming" in what I see as the original sense of the word - being called a slut by someone I had a ONS with for example.
Now with widespread and socially acceptable porn in the mix too it's such a minefield and I worry about how to guide my preteen daughter through it. I don't want her to be made to feel guilty for wanting sex. But I also don't want her to be pushed into things she doesn't want to do

Sorry, TMI waffly stream of consciousness!

oneflew brilliant post. I think sometimes we feminists make our arguments a bit too academic, they are not just for the academically minded, but for all women.

Grimble - Who are porn fans or porn watchers? What are there attributes. Can someone enjoy porn and be a nurse, a carer work, a charity worker a Doctor. I think it's sweeping to suggest that they lack compassion.

Gawd knows - I've never been able to work out the mindset of people who watch porn. I'm sure they work in every job, career or profession in the world. Just because they are good people in one sphere doesn't mean they can't be mindless shits in another.

It's utterly baffling, just as it is utterly baffling to me that nurses and doctors (since you mention them) can be smokers when they know from their profession that a half of all smokers are killed by the habit i.e. they know what they are doing is a 50% chance of slow suicide but they still do it because the laws of medicine don't apply to them. Cognitive dissonance I guess.

Porn watchers probably show a similar cognitive dissonance. Common sense and intelligence would probable indicate it is a profession involving in many cases coercion, desperation and some pretty nasty individuals putting money making above all, but somehow manage to not let it cross their radar?

As you yourself said everything else other than getting their dubious pleasure is background noise. So yes, I think there is an innate lack of compassion - a dehumanising of the participants that allows porn watchers to blank out their better feelings in that particular area of their lives.

Anyway, I've got nothing really useful to add because I find them incomprehensible. So we agree to disagree.

and I have seen estimates both higher and lower) of the numbers of people who watch porn would be 30-35% of women and 70-85% of men

Where? When? What methodology?

I don't watch porn. Never been asked for statistical purposes if I do.

Where? When? What methodology?

The same question I asked myself. Seemed to me like a case of lies, damn lies and statistics, reports that said over 40% of women watch porn and other reports that said males were more than 500% more likely to watch porn than females.... which taken together would mean more than 200% plus of men watch porn. I just put up figures in the middle of the ranges between reports that seemed to have vested interests in pushing particular agendas that were either pro or anti porn. Overall I would say porn use in younger women in increasing but I think its probably reached saturation point for males.

Certainly young girls are exposed to porn without having to seek it, as a matter of course just growing up. My youngest daughter was exposed to internet porn when she was 11 and my eldest at 13, each by their respective girlfriends of the time. That was almost a decade ago and it would be even more common now.