Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

You may tell me that the woman is suffering. That's not what I see. That's not what I watch.

I have told you this.

You making excuses for it, and denying it doesn't make it not true.

However, thanks, it's interesting to watch the cognitive process whereby a person can know something is inherently harmful and yet still give themselves an excuse to do it happens. It's one of the psychological causes of all addictions, porn seems to be no different.

You believe that all pornography is inherently harmful.
That's your opinion. I don't believe it's inherently harmful. Your claim that it is doesn't make it true.

I don't deny that some pornography is harmful and shows abuse. I'm not claiming to watch that.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Whilst we are on the subject of research. What research is there into abuse in the porn industry? I've been looking and found anecdotal stuff. Is there any research out there?

Thanks Buffy. I'll have a look. I have to admit that I thought Gail Dines work was more on the effect of porn rather than on the industry itself but I might be mis-remembering that.

whatnow123 you response is entirely understandable but please don't stop thinking about the issue because some porn ( most of it?) does involve coercion and people like you are part of the solution.

You see people apparently enjoying themselves, this may well be an act, but it isn't what you see and enjoy. And then you are told you are looking at the pain on women's faces and enjoying it and you think "not me, I don't watch/enjoy that". You are alienated by the anti porn argument.

You see porn stars claiming they enjoy their job. And you are told they aren't really they are doing it because they 'think' they like it but really they don't. Most people believe that despite societal influences most people retain some free will and are capable of making choices so you are further alienated by this argument.

You know why you think you enjoy porn but you are told that is not why you really like it. What?

You are told you enjoy watching women being attacked and abused. You do not watch this. So you stop listening to the argument.

You are told you are an addict because you make an argument for watching porn. So you might simply refuse to engage.

"I have told you this" won't work with you and it won't work with many people.

There are massive issues within the porn industry, but you can check the sites you use. You can do research to make sure the producers class themselves as ethical. You can purchase wisely. You can be aware this is a manufactured product and real life is not like that. Small incremental steps purchase by purchase can influence the industry.

Having considered this issue, in this society it is difficult to argue porn can be feminist but it can be ethical. Yes I know most of it isn't, you don't need to list and describe, we know and agree. However, there are sites trying to change the narrative.

Most young people watch porn. Fact. No matter how right you are simply telling people they are wrong does not work. Although it might make you feel morally righteous.

Do we alienate young people or keep the conversation alive?

The last bit of that post was not directed at whatnow123. The 'you' was a general 'you'.

Although it might make you feel morally righteous

I don't think you have any idea how any of us here who are unconvinced there is good to be had in porn "feel". I doubt however any one is voicing an opposition because it leads them to feel " morally righteous"

Posts on forums lose nuance but I am taking from the tone of your post (and other posts where you refer to morals) that you are using "morally righteous " in a pejorative " holier than thou" way.

I think there is a very strong case for saying porn and prostitution are immoral.

I am using "immoral " in a very wide sense of the word btw as in "if these things did not happen the world would be a better place". For example caged factory farming is immoral; micro mini skirts are not.

There is little point discussing morality, I won't/can't/don't want to change your morals.

I fully understand your anger and outrage but, to me, it seems like wasted emotion because it gets us nowhere. Changes nothing.

You can be as angry and as outraged as you like. You can be the rightest person in the history of being right but it moves us nowhere. What is the point of this anger if the way it is directed serves no purpose?

I am frustrated because to me this is a practical issue and while I very much enjoy the sociological discussions I would like some practical ideas as to how we can ameliorate the issue.

And "just say no" doesn't work.

Buffy perhaps I am motivated by feeling good, it isn't the worst motivation in the world especially since helping disadvantaged teens makes me feel good and motivates me. Motivates me to come on here and try to find an angle I can use in discussions.

Just reread my post.
See Buffy I had to put that last para in to feel good about myself. OMG I'm a narcissist.

Apologies, perhaps you are not angry and outraged. Please insert the correct adjectives as you see fit. There is undoubtedly a lot of emotion - from some posters - that seems to lack a practical focus.

There is little point discussing morality, I won't/can't/don't want to change your morals

Well you are the person who suggested those of us who are anti-porn get a feeling of being "morally righteous ". If you start throwing comments like that around then refusing to discuss it when challenged is a bit odd; particularly so when you brought up the issue of morals to try , as I saw it, to discredit posters who are anti porn.

I think you have a very limited view of what is meant by morality and morals if you think considering the morality of pornography has no place in a discussion about pornography. Morality should address whether human rights and dignity are being upheld. It has little to do with sexual preferences.

I apologise for any offence caused.

Most people have fixed views on morality, but may be changed politically, ethically, socially. I believe there are no arguments I can make to change your valid moral beliefs.

I think is sad that as a result of a long post asking for practical thoughts on how to move forward we are discussing perceived slights. I apologise, again.

Any hope of moving forward?

You see porn stars claiming they enjoy their job. And you are told they aren't really they are doing it because they 'think' they like it but really they don't.

Well, some small few would enjoy what they do, but that does not mean they enjoy it on the day with whoever they are scripted to pair with. Some work days are happy and some are an utter bastard, even when you enjoy whatever your job is. Some porn actors marry other porn actors, and clearly they are not doing that simply for sex with one another. The big lie for commercial porn would be 'they enjoy it with whoever they are paired with in the movie they shoot'. No... that is how they are required to act in order to make the movie saleable.

Or, if the movie sells abuse, they are required to act violated even if they are OK or even enjoy the experience, such is the perversity of what people do Vs what people want to see them do. Human sexuality is, taken all in all, incredibly diverse and complex... should I pity or hate people who are genuinely sexually excited by snails, trees, tentacles or other species, and call their desires invalid or deviant?

There is self delusion and there is a different belief, and the two can blend over one another. Unrelated to porn, you can have people in polyamory who are genuinely comfortable with it and others who try to 'force' feeling comfortable. Even those comfortable with it can, later, find they discover jealousy where they did not even imagine it possible. Human sexuality is the most complex and varied of all things, probably because it is the most deeply personally intimate of all things.

Anyway... I probably strayed far from porn in these ramblings because of one too many cups of sake... hope this has some worth or entertainment value.

The everybody does it argument doesn't really stand up. A few 100 years ago everybody had slaves or thought it was OK or at least almost everybody within fairly recent times. People thought women were less than men, viewed as chattle, disabled people were veiwed as cursed, everyone thought the world was flat at one time

Dadwashere does people being sexually attracted to snails or trees involve more than half the human raise being viewed as little more than sex toys, always 'up for' sex or abuse, of less value than the minority sex? If not, I am not sure it is relevant.

Race not raised!

It wasn't simply and everybody does it argument. It was an everybody does it so what can we do to ameliorate the harm question.

1833 slavery abolished in the British Empire.

Slavery was 'abolished' in the British empire less than 200 years ago. Seems quiite recent to me. And, of cours, it continues to this day anyway.

What can we do (about porn)?

To me it is a case of not pretending it is ethical, just as prostitution to me is not 'sex work'.

For my part I won't watch porn, take part in it or knowingly be with a man who supports it. I'll bring my kids up to respect their own bodies and minds, and those of others.

If there are petitions or campaigns I can join, I will.

I think porn de-humanises those in the industry and the voyeurs who watch.

Whether my own views will make any difference to others, I do not know. But morals are not simply things we hold to make ourselves feel good about ourselves, and are certainly not there so we can look down on others!

They are not simply codes of conduct for ourselves but rather are something far more personal and ingrained. It is for me a desire to uphold the dignity and humanity of all.

So watching my fellow women being fucked and flmed goes completely against this view of of dignity and humanity.

I know this view may make me unpopular. But it is, for me, not something I can change my views on. And I recognise plenty of people will take issue because they feel they should have freedom to watch what they like etc. As others on the past would have felt their freedoms were legitimate, but which we, today, would take issue with. Of course a nice slave owner is better than a bad one, but neither make slavery ethical. If you see what I mean.

This discussion could go on and on (I'm just adding to it) but Italian Greyhound post sums up my thoughts too.

I don't look down on people who use morality as an argument they scare me too much. Morality when applied to women does not usually work in our favour. The book thread are reading "Handmaids Tale". Moral arguments usually involve women being criminalised. Criminalising prostitution always means women end up in prison.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2015.1023427

Journal of sex research from the abstract of the above article.
"" users held more egalitarian attitudes—toward women in positions of power, toward women working outside the home, and toward abortion—than nonusers of pornography. Further, pornography users and pornography nonusers did not differ significantly in their attitudes toward the traditional family and in their self-identification as feminist. The results of this study suggest that pornography use may not be associated with gender nonegalitarian attitudes in a manner that is consistent with radical feminist theory."

Also, puts forward an argument that radical feminism is taking over from the radical right as traditional religion declines.

Also, has some interesting research suggesting UK porn performers have higher self esteem and better body image than non performers.