Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

I've been reading this thread with interest. As someone who watches porn semi regularly I agree it's too easy to access.

I'm of a generation that porn was easily accessible from my mid teens and it's seen as a normal part of life, openly discussed and no shame attached to it.

I think piecemeal changes are best. The opt in system is a good start. Maybe then payment only. There is too much money, too few police, too big an internet and too little will to make any total ban work.

whatnow are you a man or a woman, may I ask?

Bitof re "If consent was given. I would not condemned it. You?" Yes I would. Of course. What is someone consented to be eaten. I think that has happened. I'd have to conclude they were mentally ill.

I think you have a real problem with 'judging' but if we were talking about cruelty to children I am sure you would judge away, I hope we all would. So what a bout a wife who says, "I let my husband beat me, I don't mind it's OK." Do we say "OK, love, carry on, you know what you want!" Or do we educate the nation, as we did with domestic violence, drink driving and other stuff that some things are not OK.

I think when women are in the equal position they deserve the idea that men want to watch them being abused and harmed will be considered a vile part of history.

I said back on page 11 that I thought it was weird to enjoy watching porn. I said.. "I never want to get my rocks off by watching women having sex they do not want to have. (Or any kind of sex for that matter.) I find even the idea pornography weird. I mean I love crisps but I don't get anything out of watching anyone else eat crisps!"

And for the record I don't mind being called a prude, but I am just being honest.

I find it beyond sad that porn has become so popular and I think it is actually a sign that as group the human race in the western world have a very deep seated dislike of ourselves. But that is just a theory I am working on. I think more 'primitive' societies may not have all the issues and problems we have, I am sure they like sex and I doubt they are prudes but I also doubt they are as keen on porn as the west is.

Actually I do object to being called a "prude" in this context, because in this context it becomes a political issue. The pro-porn apologists who call women "prudes" for objecting to porn are not doing so on the basis of our actual sex lives and attitudes, but because it is in their interests to conflate sexual enjoyment with porn use (and at the extreme end, sexual enjoyment with the use of violent, misogynistic porn). And I do not and will never accept that conflation of the two ideas, which is why I personally resist being called a prude.

(In fact my sex life has always been pretty vanilla - but that's not the point. I would still object whether I was a woman who had chosen never to have sex, or one who'd been monogamously married for 40 years, or one who'd had a jolly nice time with partners running into the dozens - the point is to resist this equation of "sexually open minded and open to sex being enjoyable" with "must therefore accept that porn is okay).

A man.

Matilda I agree! Well mostly. Well a bit.

I won't call you a prude or frigid if you don't call me a pervert, weird I can live with. Name calling never helps.
The use of the words frigid or slut to control women's response to any discussion of sex is one the many ways society controls women. You are entitled to an opinion no matter what your sexual choices are. Lots of sexually open minded people do not enjoy porn.

This is also linked to judging people. Men tend to respond to clear rules and strong displays of authority (generalisation I know). Women respond to social controls, name calling, shame and judgment. "What WILL the neighbours say!". One of the many reasons I choose not to judge

Italian "What is someone consented to be eaten."
Well that may be consensual but it wouldn't be either safe or sane. Safe, sane and consensual.

Whatnow I think you reflect the opinion of many younger people I meet. It's here, it's available, we use it no harm no foul. Now what can we do to moderate it.

Buffy It goes both ways though. It has been more than implied that I am weird and worse because of my choices. Their is an inference that I am "no better than she should be". Tart. There were some interesting questions early on about my 'masturbatory habits' , not cool.

As you note I try not to make porn=fun - no porn=frigid arguments, but these arguments are so rooted in the discussion they appear even if you don't mean them. Perhaps I am hearing the sexual condemnation even if it is not there because I expect it?

Not you obviously, but I have spent a lot of time on this thread refuting what people think and assume I have said rather than what I have actually said.

Can we have this debate outside of societal conventions or are we all in an echo chamber?

"opposing porn on the grounds that it harms women is associated with denying people enjoyment of their sexuality". Well, to be frank, it is denying people their enjoyment. The question is weather it is OK to do that.

The Marxist stuff reveals I am a nerd as well as a pervert.

Their is an inference that I am "no better than she should be". Tart

No one, absolutely no one, has said anything of the sort.

Italian Greyhound and SomeDyke and myself have queried why a person would be so into porn. I can't remember who said it but someone mentioned being uncomfortable with the idea that the men she sees around here everyday are porn users.

I find the idea of watching other people having sex weird. How you can extrapolate from that statement the conclusions you have reached escapes me.

I recall on a previous discussion some one trying to defend porn said trainspotters were far more odd than consumers of porn. I don't know if they are odd ; it's certainly an odd hobby if you are not into it. Watching porn seems to me a very odd hobby.

If trainspotters are odd they can of course rest easy that they are harming no one; no harm is done to the train when it goes through a tunnel.

Italian "No one, absolutely no one, has said anything of the sort." That is why I used the word inference.

It has been implied when posters called me 'embarrassing' using shame as social control. Or asking "what do you get out of it?" prying into my habits while I am trying to keep it third person. My "obsession" is "creepy".

I am reflecting if any of us can jettison the linguistic and moral baggage, and if some of us actually want to.

BTW that is in no way a 'poor little me I am so sad' post.

I am interested in the language and the inference and why it is being used. Am I hearing what I expect and are you?

Or asking "what do you get out of it?" prying into my habits while I am trying to keep it third person.
That was me and as I subsequently explained I was trying to understand why only porn will do to scratch that itch, not erotica or acted sex scenes ie no real sex. It's relevant because with erotica no women are harmed in production but with porn you can never be sure of that.
Please go back and read the thread because you are reading stuff that isn't there. No one is slut shaming you. But you can't come on a thread about whether porn is ethical with an argument which boils down to "porn is ethical because I say it is" and expect not to be questioned further.

I recall on a previous discussion some one trying to defend porn said trainspotters were far more odd than consumers of porn. I don't know if they are odd ; it's certainly an odd hobby if you are not into it. Watching porn seems to me a very odd hobby.

What an utterly bizarre thing to write. Anything can seem uninteresting if your not interested in it. But for commonality I would imagine trainspotters make up no more than 1% of the UK population; even the term is largely unknown outside of it. But reasonable estimates I have seen (and I have seen estimates both higher and lower) of the numbers of people who watch porn would be 30-35% of women and 70-85% of men. While the percentage for men would seem static the percentage for women seems to be increasing, because younger women are growing up with a different attitude to porn.

Felsa "you are reading stuff that isn't there" that's my point. I think we all do that. My point was about linguistics and inference but you wanted it to be about porn. I am questioning the way our expectations feed into what we hear and how that impacts on the discussion. As always I was pointing the finger as much at myself as at others.

You have to be careful with "what do you get out of it" as discussions can quickly descend into swapping/judging sexual experiences. Suffice to say many people feel the pull, and they clearly do. If you want more details try opening a thread in 'Sex'.

"porn is ethical because I say it is" - wow you set a high bar. I have considered body discipline, related it to Marxist theory, engaged with the ideas of ethical vs feminist porn, quoted academic treatise of 'pro sex' (urgh) feminists, considered the language used, referenced websites that promote ethical and feminist porn and found out what Harry Potter does in his down time. I have concluded I am a damaged feminist and that feminist porn is a difficult argument to justify. But really I said "porn is ethical because I say it is". That would have saved me loads of time.

I am cut down to size.

Indeed Dadwashere and the figures among young people are even higher. Also, most of the young women watch porn on their own.

Felas - I think generally people ignore the harm or deny it.

It's become even easier in the world of social media with porn actresses bring so accessible.

Was an actress harmed in a particular scene? Go to her social media account which talks about how great porn is, how great her scenes are, how much money she makes, how she loves entertaining her "fans". That's good enough for most people to deny any harm has taken place.

Their is an inference that I am "no better than she should be".

Well, that would be implying that you are exactly as good as you should be.

I am no native speaker, but if I interpret this correctly, this is a deeply patriarchal notion, the idea that there should be women who are "sluts" and whom men can use for sexual gratification.

Feminists have no such notions. We certainly imply that someone who watches porn has some room for improvement.
What we don't do is require a class of "bad women" so that we can shine all the brighter. Feminists want all women to be feminists.

It's a northern expression my granny was fond of. Expressing distaste at another women mostly in relation to said woman's sexual habits.

Yes fine bitof. But at the point where I asked "what do you get out of it?" We hadn't covered all that
Suffice to say many people feel the pull, and they clearly do. If you want more details try opening a thread in 'Sex'. See this again illuminates your feeling that anti-porn = anti sex. I could say you are "prude shaming". I don't need to go and read the sex board to know about sex thanks.