Should refugees be taught lessons on female equality?

[PinkyofPie]

Thangam Debbonaire MP, who chairs the all-parliamentary group on refugees, believes male refugees settling in Britain should be give lessons in women's equality. link here
This concern seems to have stemmed following the Cologne attacks.

Thoughts?

Dementia is a horrible illness and I have already told my only child to put me in a home if I get it, because I saw a family of eight, where they all pulled their weight, get worn out looking after their father with dementia.

It is odd how this thread got derailed into care for the elderly. But it was just too much seeing the fact that some nationalities tend to care for their elders at home being used as yet another stick to beat them with.

The Woman's Hour piece on this issue made it clear that while it seems good in theory to "teach" refugees about Western standards of female equality, in practice if you want any sort of meaningful outcome from the intervention then it is much more complex than mandatory teaching sessions.

Living to a ripe old age is much rarer in Afghanistan.

It is a lot more complex than lessons. Lessons will not work when the other apparatus of the state that migrants are likely to encounter are not supporting the equality agenda. Social workers, police, health care workers for too long have colluded with the notion that we must respect other cultural values even when they conflict with womens' rights. This needs to change in order to ensure our legal and cultural norms are communicated and respected.

I know the thread asks about refugees, but what about those people who come to live here from ME, Iran, Pakistan, etc who are at the other end of the economic spectrum, yet still maintaining their respective cultural beliefs and lifestyles.

We live close to the area of Knightsbridge in London, the inhabitants of which are predominantly drawn from or connected to various ME / other Islamic countries.

If you are out in this area on any given evening, around 80% of women will be wearing various styles of hijab. Some will be fully covered in the chador. If this were Paris, covering the face would be illegal. But if we had a similar law here, would this make any difference to the way these women view themselves and their human rights? I'm doubt it.

A close friend of mine (originally from Iran) is a highly educated and articulate woman. She is Muslim but does not wear the hijab on a day-to-day basis, however, she is always very open about how her husband will never permit her to work outside the home, despite her professional qualifications. She argues that this interpretation of Islam actually gives women greater freedom as they are better able to focus on being a wife and mother as is the natural order of things (as she sees it).

Personally, I struggle with this, but as a friend I have to respect her. On the other hand, our neighbour, who wears the full chador, works as a healthcare professional.

The other night we were out for dinner with an Egyptian business associate of DH who brought along "one" of his wives (the other is apparently living in Egypt). I realise these are all oersonsl anecdotes, but this is a large part of the character of the area we live in and I'm unable to see how any course or ongoing interventions will change the mindset or cultural values of these people, who are some of the wealthiest, most highly educated and possibly influential in the UK.

Given that the average age of death has only recently risen to 60 in Afghanistan I doubt there are hoards of 90 year olds being tended to in the old age.

She argues that this interpretation of Islam actually gives women greater freedom as they are better able to focus on being a wife and mother as is the natural order of things (as she sees it)

What purpose does she think women who are not wives and mothers serve ?

This is going to come out the wrong way but how is it possible to remain friends with her ? Her views to me seem so extreme I could not imagine having any worthwhile common ground.

The prophet Muhammed's first wife was his employer, a merchant. There is nothing in Islam that says women can only be wives and mothers.

Lass - I suppose I wonder what my outlook would be if I had spent my formative years in Iran. Also our DC are good friends at school and we do have much in common on a day to day basis. I also know that my friend has British citizenship and she would get half her husband's assets if she divorced him. Refugee women have no such security.

Also her views would not be intended as a slur on women who do not have children - it's more that this is her perspective on married life.

DH is also part Iranian (Christian) and it's a hugely diverse country, ethnically and culturally. Women now make up 65% of the university population and around 20% of the workforce (I think) though certain courses and jobs are still off-limits for them. Although, women do need their husbsnd's permission to work outside the home and your his signature is required for you to be able to apply for a passport, most husbands are increasingly liberal about this kind of thing. It depends on how conservative your family are, but things are changing.

Atenco - like anything, people interpret the Koran to their own ends. I have never seen anything in the Koran that says music should be banned for instance, yet this is the case in some Saudi households round here.

To be fair, my kids went to a Catholic school until I moved them recently. Many of the white catholic women there had a similar attitude towards marriage and children, despite being fairly highly educated in some cases. I did find it wearing the whole passive aggressive 'I dont know how you manage work and the home' chat. A surprising number of them coudnt get on with any form of contraception either and were on 3/4/5 children.It's difficult for some to overcome religious indoctrination when you have the fear of eternal help fire hanging over your every move.

rsisedbyguineapigs - well exactly. If you deconstruct any religion you're pretty much left with the same thing - a belief system created by men for the purposes of men.

Despite all this, I was raised in a European Catholic country and I still struggle at times to detach myself from the inbuilt indoctrination I acquired as a result.

Yes my parents weren't really very strict Catholics and I fell out with it periodically over the years. It always surprised me when I meet strict Catholics who must have heard what I did and didn't think much of it was incredibly dodgy. I suppose my dad being basically atheist, as are my husband and in laws exposed me to questions I couldn't logically answer. If you are totally immersed in religious doctrine at home and school and all your peers are the same, it's difficult to see differently.

It is very clear it will take a lot for the women 'trapped' living in very controlling marriages to realise their human rights. But I thought the idea of this law was for people (well, men especially) to understand the attitudes in our culture, especially to women, that are different to their culture.

There will be controlling and violent men in any culture. This country has laws that say things about tolerance. So for example understanding in our culture women can dress pretty much how they choose. and should expect to not be molested on the street! Yes, I know it does not always work like that! People can be say their thoughts on life and religion, gat men and lesbians can express affection to a partner on the street and expect to be safe. Etc...

Look at that appalling example of a man who killed a shop keeper because he did not like what was written on line! Clearly not everyone is going to do that or want to do it! But some may secretly support it. Religious and social and racial tolerance is vital, as is the fact women should never be controlled by men!

I'm a Christian and I expect freedom to worship without fear. In many countries this is not the case (yes, I know the church has done many bad things in the past, and continues today, and I am not proud of some of our history) but I want that same religious and personal tolerance for all.

For those who do not tolerate others but mutter under their breath, the idea of educating is a nice thought. For those who would grope or abuse a woman, attack a gay man or lesbian, start a fight because of religious differences or worse kill someone because you disagree with their ideology....
For these people education is vital. It might change views just as de-radicalisation mentoring can; it might even spot radicals.

If tolerant views trickle down into the family, excellent. But it is clear for the sake of harmony and tolerance in general society people need to know what is expected in our culture and what is not accepted. I'd include Christias, especially hard line fundamental Christians, in this too. It'd not about penalizing one group.

I think it's a good idea. I think there needs to be more education on this generally, for everyone. It should be taught in schools and repeated often. Respect, kindness and equality is lacking in all cultures.

If you deconstruct any religion you're pretty much left with the same thing - a belief system created by men for the purposes of men.

The three main religions are massively anti-women, but I would argue that they are belief systems created by (some) men for the purposes of controlling men and women.
A lot (but not all) of the anti-women aspect of religion is added by culture and not part of the doctrine.

"Given the levels of sexual assault, misogyny, everyday sexism, salary inequality and general twattishness of the beloved British male, perhaps refugees have nothing to learn from our society then?"

I've lived and travelled through some if the countries pribably talked about here. I experienced a crazy amoubt if daily harassment and assault - nothing like I've experienced in my many years in the UK. Really not comparable.

I've also lived in Asia where looking after your old folk is publicised. What they don't add is that they often have a huge army of lowly paid domestic staff or maids who make this much easier.

Aren't they supposed to be doing relationship education in schools now? It was supposed to be aimed at making teen girls and boys aware of controlling behaviour, domestic violence and undue sexual pressure. There were ads on TV a while back. Obviously older men are not at school but I guess a similar style of thing could be brought in. Maybe saying that our dynamics within relationships are differed end and then highlighting the position of women in European societies and what that entails.

As for British and European men, yes there are some that are sexist, do behave like twats but it is getting more difficult for them to be so without getting pulled up on it. Yes we have a way to go, but we are better off acknowledging that and all working towards it (migrants from other countries included).

The sooner we do this education for all (at school) then we can all look forward to a fairer and more pleasant society for us all.

I agree that we could learn a great deal from the other cultures of refugees, such as stronger family values and care of the old, but that does not mean we should not make sure they understand ours in regard to women. Both women and men should be given the lessons.

Could we really? I'm wholly unconvinced by that sweeping generalisation.

I disagree kinddogstail especially when family values mean precisely nothing when your daughter wants to divorce her violent husband or doesn't want to marry her illiterate first cousin, or wants to do something her family doesn't approve of. Family values as far as I can see, more in Western, secular culture, for all its faults than in the traditions of my own culture are ones that support all members of the family, whether you disapprove of what they do or not, that you are there for them if they fall. Not family values that are used to constrain mainly women but also homosexuals or anyone who wants to do something not in the status quo for fear of bringing shame on the family. Where what your neighbours think of you is more important than your own child's welfare and happiness. No thanks.

raisedby
I am not in disagreement with you. Family values which suppress and often harm family members, especially women, are not those I meant though. I was , responding to another poster earlier up who said something to the effect that we in the West should not be too smug given that we often do not look after our old people ourselves.

I wholeheartedly agree that people coming to live here need to understand our values.

responding to another poster earlier up who said something to the effect that we in the West should not be too smug given that we often do not look after our old people ourselves

I'm guessing you glossed over the comprehensive debunking of that?

I see now that indeed I did!

I think any discussion about attitudes towards care of the elderly in the UK or somewhere like Afghanistan is a complete non-starter to be honest. It comes down to choice. In Afghanistan there is no choice - you care for your relatives or throw them out into the street. There are no care homes, social services, etc. People are barely surviving and life expectancy is far lower obviously.

Also, I don't believe it is the culture in The UK to just throw out me elderly into care homes. Not at all. When MIL was widowed last year, we offered that she could move in with us, but she didn't want to so we got her an apartment down the road -(now guess who's the one expected to call on her everyday ). If in the future, she ever requires more care we have a range of options - live-in carers, care homes, etc. but the point is that we have choices here that someone from Afghsnistan would have no idea about.