Should refugees be taught lessons on female equality?

[PinkyofPie]

Thangam Debbonaire MP, who chairs the all-parliamentary group on refugees, believes male refugees settling in Britain should be give lessons in women's equality. link here
This concern seems to have stemmed following the Cologne attacks.

Thoughts?

Grimarse. You state that "No nakedness tolerated" between males in Muslim countries.

I am not a Muslim. I am a white western male. I have worked in the Middle East, and I can only relate my own experiences. In the UK, it is normal for men to get changed together - sports, swimming etc frequently have communal changing rooms. I was in a sports centre in one country and I stripped off to change. One man took great offence, but spoke no English, so he directed me to a sign - like we have at the swimming baths, no petting, no running etc. Except this one said 'No Nakedness'. This was in an exclusively male changing room, not at the poolside!

Subsequently, I found this to be the rule. There were individual showers, individual changing rooms. Some men struggled beneath a towel, like you see people at the beach trying to put a swimming costume on. But there was no tolerance for being in the buff.

Their country, their rules. Maybe not every ME country is the same. But I saw this in several places.

I have never heard of dacha bazi, but as I say, I am not from that region.

(It could also be completely unrelated. I think in many countries it is the norm to not be naked in saunas, etc ... isn't that also the case in Britain?)

It is not the norm to be naked in saunas in Britain, certainly not mixed ones, and I don't know of any single sex ones.
I understand in Germany and perhaps Finland it is required to be naked in mixed saunas.

I have been in a sauna in Finland. There were naked people, but I kept my shorts on. You can take a sauna however you feel most comfortable. I have never seen a naked sauna in the UK, but then I don't use them very often here.

Great idea. I think the suffragettes would turn in their graves if they saw how some women in Britain are forced to live these days.

You can take a sauna however you feel most comfortable.

Not true, apparently. I know a German guy who was angrily told to put something on in a sauna in Japan, and I have heard of someone being told off for not being naked in German sauna. Both mixed.

Entirely possible, dey. I was in Finland, I can't speak for the other countries.

Anyone who has married into an Asian culture where the family are first generation in the West will know that a quick course on female equality as perceived over here will do little to shift cultural perceptions. My DH's mother is Iranian Christian and came here over 40 years ago - a very liberal woman in her time! Yet she still insisted on giving me countless "lessons" in how to cook for her son before we got married - and there was a whole lot of other "marital advice" that came with it -(it's still coming)! It's a bit naive for us to expect to impose our own cultural perceptions into others.

I think its a great idea for anyone coming into any country from anywhere to get a good grounding that countries laws, and for the women of course to hear it and be present.

It sets a good grounding, maybe a new start and also helps any vulnerable women to know they can access services to help them. This is a good win win all round.

Its a slow small step to help those from different cultures to intergrate and filter down through the generations.

mad my own DM was a bit like that and you will find many MILS also feel their sons wives should be doing all the house work.
My own dm said to DH " I know you work hard, and have to help with the cooking, and have to help with the dc and have to help in the garden...."

help , fucking help???? Its also generational thing isnt it, but its all slowly changing.

It also needs to be drummed in in schools too.

August - yes I agree that offering people an introduction into the laws governing women's rights in the country they are entering can't do any harm. Whether women have the confidence to access the services and laws designed to help them is obviously another issue.

Many women coming from countries such as Afghanistan will actually see Western women as more exploited than they are - eg. the emphasis on make-up, fashion, body image or being "used" (as they see it) by men for sex outside marriage. One of the positives in say, Iranian culture, is that mothers who do not work outside the home do seem, in some ways, to be given more respect and "status" than in the West. Some see the Westernised pressure on women to juggle a successful career with children as a burden which is likely to be detrimental to their happiness and health, rather than a marker of success or "having it all".

Of course, I would always support women in whatever choices they make, but my own marriage has helped me understand a bit about how perspectives can vary.

Refugees? Or all immigrants? It would seem to me quite sensible that both men and women moving to a very different culture would be offered classes ( not even sure if that is quite the right word), about how society is organised in their new country. Practical things like how to open a bank account, get a NI number, rent a house etc. And more cultural things, how the political system works, what would be acceptable behaviour or not (like burping loudly after eating, or spitting on the ground). And what your rights are and one aspect of this would be women's rights. For example that domestic violence is not lawful here under any circumstances, or fgm etc etc. You won't necessarily change people's mindset, but you can let them know that certain behaviour that would be acceptable (perhaps) in their home country might be illegal here.

Re saunas and nakedness, myself and dh were told off in no uncertain terms in an Austrian sauna for wearing our swimming costumes. An angry janitor with a mop yelling 'keine 'zeuge' loudly at you while pulling at the edge of your togs is definitely not a situation where nakedness is optional! These are the sort of cultural things that I reckon it would be useful to learn when you go to a new country.

Mad - it sounds like you have been very accommodating of your MIL's cultural expectations of how you should behave. I wonder how accommodating she has been of yours? I'm not sure I could have been as compliant as you.

shins you say that I should have had an answer for the young man who asked about us putting our elderly into care homes.

Why should I?

We have a shocking proportion of isolated and lonely older people in our society. I would hate to see my remaining parent have to go into a home, and between us, we managed to care for my now passed away parent at home til almost the end.

I don't have an answer as to why we have so many lonely and neglected old people, it's shocking and shameful.

I'm not setting myself up as any kind of authority or example, but our record in the UK with our old folk is not to be admired.

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

People flee war and trouble. But why is there war and trouble? It is noticable that most of the war torn places are islamic or tribal, or both. The culture of such places tends to revolve around a strong man as leader passing power on to his children. In consequence there is incentive for war as the means of canging government.

By comparison we have moved our culture a long way from tribal fuedal ideas into a democracy governed by laws that apply to government as well as the governed. It is that which makes western democracy so much richer for everyone..(including the poorest who can be supported by welfair). Womens rights are as much part of our culture as is democracy.

Sadly there is a fundamental clash between western democracy and tribal culture. I would suggest that is refugees want to come here it is because it is safer than the MENA. And that safety is because we value women as equal. I venture to suggest thqt new arrivals who cannot accept our ideas about womens place in soceity should question themselves if they are capable of being part of our country.

What's the point? Luton have just given Muslim men the big pool so they can have their 'men only' swimming sessions, ( widely reported in the press but didn't see a mention of it on here ) 'cultural differences' will be used to explain away all sorts of male privilege happening around us, but feminists don't seem to be saying much - I know men getting the bigger better pool all for themselves ( in a public sports centre ) isn't what this thread is about, but I just wanted to make the point that the feminist movement really isn't doing much anymore in relation to a lot of what's going on under their noses.

I'm not setting myself up as any kind of authority or example, but our record in the UK with our old folk is not to be admired

Did you read any of the links about treatment of the elderly? The ones pointing out the worst place to be elderly is Afghanistan, especially if you are a woman? Or the research placing the UK tenth best?

Sara - I don't think anyone is saying that caring for elderly relatives is a bad thing in itself. It's simply that in places where the extended family is the norm, the burden of the care work falls on women. This will obviously curtail their freedom in other areas, notably working outside the home. Even in places like rural Spain where I was born, this kind of situation is often in evidence, despite the notion that European women have achieved relative equality.

ProfessorPrecise - I agree with your points, but I'm just not sure that things can ever be that clear cut. I know many, many people who have spent most of their lives in the UK, benefitting from the freedoms and education offered here. Yet religious attitudes run deeper than cultural appearances very often. Or attitudes towards gender only become apparent when people from different cultures marry. It is fairly easy for most people to pass off as educated and "liberated" in day to day life. They learn to conform.

I venture to suggest thqt new arrivals who cannot accept our ideas about womens place in soceity should question themselves if they are capable of being part of our country.

I agree and think our overly tolerant attitudes don't help.

When anyone I know, myself included, live or travel to ME countries, feminist or not we cover to the locally-expected level and suck up the law because otherwise there will be swift, painful consequences.

We don't start riots outside coffee shops when women are requested to remain in their cars and send drivers instead; we don't actually drive in some cases because the law of that land forbids it.

And, were we to do so, there would be absolutely no free legal representation making excuses for us that it's our culture or that we'd 'misunderstood.'

As for catcalling, shouting at men or actual sexual assault; the key would be chucked away.

So why do we find it so very difficult to make clear, unequivocal statements about the behavioural standards we expect (and deserve) in our own society and culture?

Why are our prison sentences and deportation processes so laughable? We are toothless, and the message we are sending is that you can pretty much get away with anything; there'll always be an apologist for you and the rest are too hidebound by fear of being called racist and general British embarrassment to complain.

The Norwegian education programmes I contacted earlier this year to ask how they were working had been withdrawn on funding grounds.

I'd be interested to hear of others' results. The Finnish policewomen who delivered one programme I heard a report on, wasn't too hopeful.

'shins you say that I should have had an answer for the young man who asked about us putting our elderly into care homes.

Why should I?'

Because you've come on the Internet using it as an example, which gives you a good opportunity to look at the actual evidence base for what you're saying.

'We have a shocking proportion of isolated and lonely older people in our society. I would hate to see my remaining parent have to go into a home, and between us, we managed to care for my now passed away parent at home til almost the end.'

Unlike Afghanistan, where families and the state often refuse to care for the elderly, where they have to continue working because nobody is prepared to support them, and where there is a culture of seeing them as a burden, according to the UN.

'I don't have an answer as to why we have so many lonely and neglected old people, it's shocking and shameful.'

And yet also tenth best in the world.

What disturbs me about posts like these are that they based on the notion that women's rights are somehow optional in setting up an ethical society. They rest on the notion that you can treat half your population absolutely terribly and yet somehow have high levels of wellbeing for children, or the elderly or the poor. Or that problems like trafficking can be tackled.

Without women's rights, it becomes impossible to secure human rights for other vulnerable groups. We do not have something to learn from societies that treat women this way.

Many women coming from countries such as Afghanistan will actually see Western women as more exploited than they are - eg. the emphasis on make-up, fashion, body image or being "used" (as they see it) by men for sex outside marriage

And they are right, in a way. They are used to the way they are exploited in, so they are blind to that - but people here are blind to the burden that make-up, fashion and casual sex put on women.

I think we need more feminism, more real feminism, to combat the notion that women have to wear make-up, revealing clothes, and be "sex positive".

If women from Afghanistan could see that it is perfectly acceptable to be a frumpy spinster here, if there weren't half-naked women on every second advertising pillar, and if mothers could actually come home from work and relax because their husband does his half of the childcare, then I think they might be much more willing to assimilate.

If women from Afghanistan could see that it is perfectly acceptable to be a frumpy spinster here, if there weren't half-naked women on every second advertising pillar,

As opposed to looking round them in every street, shop, office, school gate, café etc and seeing millions of ordinary, plain," frumpy " (your word, not mine) everyday women going about their everyday business?

I really hate this aspect of feminism that we are all mindless automatons buying into the cosmetics and fashion industry - you only have to look round you to see most women seem to have little problem ignoring it.

Yes because the only other option from being half naked is to dress as a letterbox and trail several paces behind your husband?

The cultural cringe here is ridiculous. I have no tolerance for people who want to reap the benefits of a prosperous, democratic and liberal society while maintaining the behaviour that keeps their home countries mired in poverty and conflict. Look at the extraordinary rates of unemployment among Muslim women in the UK. That depressing fact is aided and abetted by apologists who think oh well, let's just leave them to it, it's their culture.

That depressing fact is aided and abetted by apologists who think oh well, let's just leave them to it, it's their culture

And at the same nit-pick and cavil and talk down western democratic liberal societies.