Should refugees be taught lessons on female equality?

[PinkyofPie]

Thangam Debbonaire MP, who chairs the all-parliamentary group on refugees, believes male refugees settling in Britain should be give lessons in women's equality. link here
This concern seems to have stemmed following the Cologne attacks.

Thoughts?

People hear/say "education" as though it were a magic wand. But it isn't

I agree. But we could achieve a lot by educating the women. There was this girl who sued her parents for trying to force her to marry a much older man, somewhere in, I don't know, one of those countries where that's common, but there was a new law against it, and she used it.

Men, well, perhaps they will be somewhat less criminal once they are told that the things they are used to doing are considered crimes here. I don't think they'll suddely be enlightened as to the wrongness of oppression, but if they don't go around raping women because it has been hammered into them that this is a bad idea, and they will be caught, and as foreigners quite likely will end up in prison ... that's one step forward, and they might then not be much worse than some of the native males.

Nonwestern parents of sons get cared for in their own homes by their daughters in law.

Nonwestern parents on daughters get shit.

Yes I am Indian. I wouldn't wear stuff I wear in the uk when I visit india. Because if I do, I will get groped, and cat called at and if I decide to venture out at night, raped. Flesh is fair game.

I think grimarse has tricked us into admitting the UK isn't such a bad place to be a woman.

Everything is relative. The UK is a better place to be a woman than the Middle East. Not exactly cause for celebration.

That's what I thought morris. Isn't he clever??

I think grimarse has tricked us into admitting the UK isn't such a bad place to be a woman

The UK isn't a bad place to be a woman. Nothing to do with trickery.

Grimarse likes baiting feminists and derailing threads here.

From yesterday's paper. We have precisely nothing to learn from Afghanistan thanks so please drop the cultural cringe.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/afghanistan-child-marriage-afghan-cleric-religious-offering-a7164826.html

We have precisely nothing to learn from Afghanistan thanks so please drop the cultural cringe.

Well, well, now, don't be unfair, I heard Afghan food is really good. (Granted, that's the only redeeming feature that comes to mind.Still.)

One should always be open to learning the good bits of foreign cultures ... besides, that's a good old tradition in Britain, so in a way, it is even patriotic.

I'm a bit torn on this, as someone who has had to bow to the inevitable when my father's alzheimers got such we were told he'd have to go into a care home (after a 6 week stay in hospital) previously he'd been at home with my brother and carers during daytime. I used to hope and pray he'd die there but unfortunately Alzheimers had other ideas. Falls, double incontinence, aggression, taking 3 to pick him up off the floor. In Asia my bro would have had an arranged marriage and the DIL would have done the lion's share.And of course that may well have been best for Dad.
I work in a hospital and the number of women from South Asia who come in with depression on their past medical history is way higher than in other groups (european, african , caribbean etc). I think the familial pressures and expectations, coupled with low aspirations for the women are one reason for it.
I've only ever had 1 Afghan woman patient, she was illiterate and her husband's idea of her abilities was obviously low as evidenced by the way he spoke of her. She also had depression on her PMH.

"I was really put on the spot when a young Afghan man asked me if it was true that we in the UK place our elderly relatives away from the family in care homes. He couldn't comprehend why we would even consider it."
Glad to see that others have beat me to pointing out that this young Afghan man wouldn't be the one doing the actual work of caring for the elderly relative. So something I absolutely would not feel 'put on the spot' for, but would regard as an opportunity to educate said young man.

"I work with refugees and I've constantly been struck by their strong family ties and absolute respect for their parents and other senior relatives. I think we could all learn a thing or two from people arriving here from other cultures."
Have you considered that this 'absolute respect' is a millstone round the neck of the younger generation at the beck and call of potentially controlling, unreasonable, financially abusive and downright sadistic elders? Just because you survive long enough for the next generation to achieve adulthood doesn't guarantee you're a nice person worthy of that respect. You might be, you might not. Indeed, I would argue that being raised in a culture that gives unquestioning respect based on age alone is likely to lead to a sense of entitlement in the older generation that makes it all the easier to tend towards being controlling, unreasonable, financially abusive etc.

You seem inclined to take things at face value CuttedUpPear, without considering the possible ramifications of of these cultural differences.

"Just as important to teach women as well, surely."
I can absolutely agree with that. They have a right not to be diddled out of their rights.

Good idea in theory, but in practice, if it is not what you have been brought up with, you can pretty much dismiss women's equality as a sign of Western moral degradation. I come from a very liberal Indian background, yet I was still pressurised into marriage rather than a career. I resisted, which was easier for me because of my background and I now have both. But my mother has little or no interest in my career. Shes just relieved it didnt make me 'unmarriageable'. I think some people on this thread have no idea of how lucky they are in relation to being able to choose their own life paths and the pressure women are in some of the communities that the 'young afghan men' that they speak to come from.

Agreed raisedby. I had close friends from a second-generation very traditional culture when I was young and their struggles educated me very comprehensively about how hard it is for young women of their background to break free of the narrow expectations and roles. They were not in the least bit sentimental about their parents' culture.

If it was a matter of education why do boys brought up in the uk have this issue

My son when to a mainly Asian high school and some of his friends couldn't get round the fact my husband is a nurse these are 16 year old boys born and brought up in London

Also many of the Somalian boys really struggled with the form teacher because she is female and telling them what to do they sadly are more highly valued than the girls my cousin told me she stuggled to get the parents in for the girls she had a girl and boy twins and the parents came for the boy's parents evening but felt there wasn't any point to stay for the daughters 😳

www.facebook.com/theguardian/videos/10154390186806323/

This piece by a Guardian journalist explores the female equality classes which took place in Norway, and its effects on the migrants.

Unfortunately, the ideology that we can change these imbedded cultures with a few classes is naive, but as the piece demonstrates it is not to change the current generation but hopefully the next generation.

Maybe rather than the uphill struggle of cultural change, we should just say 'This is acceptable behaviour and this is not. End of story.' This doesn't only need to apply to refugees, but as others have pointed out, to everyone. We say that as a culture, we do not accept women being treated as inferiors, groping and sexual assault in the street, forced marriage, fgm, flying girls out to Bangladesh to marry illiterate 50 year old cousins etc etc.

Refugees from which countries? Remember not all cultures are the same.

Have a look on "Talking Point", the online Alzheimer's support forum, or the elderly parents and dementia threads on MN. You won't find many people merrily bunging their relatives into homes at the first sign of trouble, even if they could afford it. You will find a lot of people absolutely breaking themselves for years caring for relatives through stroke after hip replacement after pneumonia after UTI after UTI after UTI. It's intense and can go on for years, getting worse all the time.
My granny had 4 children plus their spouses plus young adult grandchildren to look after her in her old age. My parents have 3 children, grandchildren too small to help. I hope to have two children. My siblings so far have none.
The lovely extended family all caring for the sweet old people only works if you have an unsustainably high ( as far as natural resources are concerned) reproductive rate, make sure the females are carers all their lives and breed early themselves to make sure granddaughters are old enough to pitch in when the elderly start to ail.
You probably also need to have a medical system lacking the ability to keep older people alive when their medical conditions require very intensive management.
On the original point- yes I think culture lessons are a good idea, for both male and female immigrants. Also language lessons, particularly for women.

I think it's important to educate the men and the women - so the women also know what their rights are.

^^ This 100% of course both sexes need educating but not just refugees any one form a different culture needs help

FFS. This is not about feminism. It is about Islamphobia - the narrative of the entitled MNers.

FUCK YES!

ding<

Next question? :D

Good point Powershower. Jeremy Hunt's comment about "people in the UK being too quick to put their relations into a care home" (unlike the Chinese) really pissed me off. I'd love to see him giving up being a minister of state to care for his mum with dementia. Or maybe he'd expect his Chinese wife to do the caring?!

Its not all about dementia though is it? I have worked in an old peoples home and very quiet sweet people with full mental faculty have been left there. But that's by the by, its not a pay off is it between looking after the elderly or having female rights...and equality.

Ie treat woman like shit but when shes old - take care of her at home

I can only comment about dementia as that is the scenario I have experienced. I can say hand on heart if my mum was frail but compos mentis I'd ensure she stayed at home (but sadly she died at 54).
I get your wider point- what's the point of treating women as chattel and lowlier forms of human life only to care for them at home once they are old and ailing? I think in a lot of muslim countries women who are still capable of being sexually active/ arousing desire in men are seen as dangerous. Old age removes the danger and confers a kind of respectability and relative freedom.

Personally having witnessed dementia at first hand, I think we need new ways of dealing with it, perhaps euthanasia because sufferers are so frail and vulnerable.

We are n a very tough double bind. medicine overcomes certain problems and creates others. People live longer, survive heart disease, infection, diabetes then get dementia. I've seen quite a few families from Asian (and African) backgrounds not coping with demented relatives, and just getting them in for increasingly frequent and unwarranted hospital admissions. Euthanasia is a step too far for me though.

Personally for me I would hope to leave anyone left to care for me, some red flags, ie if I don't know who you are ever, please help me die.

My choice in terms of what i don't want to be left to live with. I suppose a sort of will, signed by solicitors and medics are then called in, can she do this, recognise her etc...and if not...