Should refugees be taught lessons on female equality?

[PinkyofPie]

Thangam Debbonaire MP, who chairs the all-parliamentary group on refugees, believes male refugees settling in Britain should be give lessons in women's equality. link here
This concern seems to have stemmed following the Cologne attacks.

Thoughts?

exalted that's probably true.

The Fins (I believe) got policewomen to do it. The report I read said at first they refused to attend, then when they did so, it was only the men. One officer told them in no uncertain terms to get back and bring their womenfolk. Some did.

She did give them the basics of women's equality. One chap's comment as he left was 'yes, but that's not for me.'

I don't know what the answer is but I do not believe our current limp-wristed attitude is putting any firm boundaries in place.

IPity thanks for your comment a page or so back,summed it up for me.

Why wouldn't anyone arriving in a new culture or country be interested in the traditions and customs there? Why shouldn't he ask?
And why shouldn't I feel that the many of the thousands of elderly in care homes might want a different end to their lives?

I make an exception for those with dementia and severe medical problems. But I have elderly and dying relatives and even my fragmented and dysfunctional family are still trying their best to help them live out their days at home.

My friend and his culture have been torn to shreds for my suggestion that there is a better way to look after the elderly.

Way to go.

By the way I'm not suggesting that everyone is in a position to help with their elderly parents so there's no need for anyone to defend their individual situations.

Cutteduppear, people's issue is not that they don't think elderly care could be improved.

The issue is your suggestion we could learn how to do this from the culture of Afghanistan.

"My friend and his culture have been torn to shreds for my suggestion that there is a better way to look after the elderly"

Unfortunately on these threads, the people who believe that everything foreign is bad are not really interested in listening to another point of view, so they've decided that care for the elderly, even for elderly women, goes against feminist principles.

I don't see the dynamics of oppression in western culture and other cultures as being that different. Levels of what is accaptable / not acceptable vary and how women experience their community and societies response also vary.

I have spent some time 'inside' Muslim migrant world and think that in many ways, where healthy dynamics exist in families and community, women experience a healthier and more integrated sense of them selves as women and as members of families and of society then we do in the west. (I'm seeing this from my own experience here so only speak for myself)

However, when abuse and oppression happens, it is so much harder for a women from a different cultural background who is living in western society to escape abuse.

in some Muslim community groups, the attitude that western women are sexually available, sluts etc is rife. its such a complex issue. Historic resentments towards the west (colonialism) have driven the justification for sexual exploitation of young white women. An excuse. (I have spoken to a man who told be this is viewed as jihad on Kaffir)

I am quite honestly disgusted at this governments proposal. Women at the sharp end of the system are still utterly oppressed. Western white women.

Lessons are pointless, there needs to be dialogue between refugee/migrant and western communities.

These communities -Really- want this. They want to meet, make friends, be accepted and share cultures. Absolutely they do. Without a real dialogue then it will not happen. 'Lessons'. Telling people what to do are never the way forward. People need understanding.

I make an exception for those with dementia and severe medical problems. But I have elderly and dying relatives and even my fragmented and dysfunctional family are still trying their best to help them live out their days at home.

Well this exception is new, but do you honestly not realise that because we have so many more elderly and because the UK obviously enjoys much better medical care than Afghanistan, the elderly as a population here are very different to those in Afghanistan, in that respect? If you're a poor person in rural Afghanistan with an age related health condition, how likely do you think you are to live with it for years and years as you might be able to in the UK? If you have a condition like dementia that requires medical management for you to continue living with it for many years, clearly there will be fewer people surviving for long in Afghanistan than in the UK. Meaning the UK has elder care needs that Afghanistan doesn't, and as a double whammy, doesn't have anything like the number of capable relatives per elderly and ill person as Afghanistan.

This is all incredibly obvious if you think about it for more than a minute, but it does require you to go a bit beyond wide eyed, we can learn so much, I can't believe you're all slagging off my friend's culture. I'm actually sympathetic to the view that we often have much to learn from the way other societies do things, I've definitely received an incredible education in our line of work and feel very privileged to have had that opportunity. But this was not the example to choose.

Unfortunately on these threads, the people who believe that everything foreign is bad are not really interested in listening to another point of view, so they've decided that care for the elderly, even for elderly women, goes against feminist principles.

Yes. That's exactly what happened. It couldn't possibly be that care for the elderly in some societies exists off the backs of women's unpaid labour. And if it does, it doesn't matter, and we shouldn't point it out, otherwise we think everything foreign is bad.

"people who believe everything foreign is bad"

Yeah that sums up all the well-argued, factually based, thoughtful responses I've seen on here on the subject of care of the elderly across different cultures and how it ties in with the role and status of women. I can't be bothered with this level of "I have no actual points to make nor will I engage with those you've made-I'll just say how mean you are, oh and racist too".

Just to say, wearing of the hijab is more 'cultural' than religious. Many Muslim women choose not to wear it and many women choose to wear it. It is not primarily an object of oppression.

I've noticed a few comments about men requiring women to cover. Many many women cover their head by choice. It is quite a sexy thing in some culture to just reveal a bit of hair line.

The moral panic about hijab is somewhat misplaced.

Is it definitely the case that the responsibility for elder care falls on women in the kinds of places being discussed here, or is this just a presumption? Genuine question, I don't know the answer.

MyPeriodFeatures, if that is so why is it that a miniscule amount of cultures other than those linked to Islam do it? Also in Victorian times there was the line "A glimpse of stocking was considered shocking" indicating that it was not considered decent for a lady to show her ankles. We now do not subscribe to this notion as it's considered old fashioned. Could the same be said of the hijab? Is it a rather old fashioned thing really?

Consider the mystealthyfreedom movement in Iran where women are not allowed the option to wear or not wear, in Saudi too. I imagine there is a mix here too in that some women have the choice and some may face pressure from husbands/fathers/brothers/community to wear it.

Some women wear ankle bracelets because they are considered sexy, they are however at no point considered religious or linked to any faith.

"My friend and his culture have been torn to shreds for my suggestion that there is a better way to look after the elderly"

You have not been torn to pieces. Links to research were posted pointing out Afghanistan is one of the worst places in the world to be elderly.

people who believe everything foreign is bad

No one has said anything like that. Cuttedup and to some extent Vestal have been arguing everything in UK/Europe is bad.

Yes, there's quite a lot of research on it. The UN have identified the burden of disproportionate unpaid care work on women as a major human rights issue, barrier to equality and factor contributing to extreme poverty. It's very significant. This report from 2013 discusses some of the issues in detail.

www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A%2F68%2F293&Submit=Search&Lang=E

The UN special rapporteur probably thinks everything foreign is bad, though. They should've just got one point of view from someone not in the class of people doing the actual work, and saved themselves loads of time.

Thedancingbear, in the case of Afghanistan, the following things commonly happen:

1. Nobody is prepared to care for the elderly person, so they continue in paid employment until they die.
2. Nobody is prepared to care for the elderly person and they have no pension, so they beg and/or live on the streets until they die.
3. If male, they live with close family, and if no close family are available, charities are available to care for some elderly males.
4. If female, close or distant family will take them in on the basis that the elderly person will be doing domestic work in the household. Elderly women then have little opportunity to participate in society and are vulnerable to abuse, particularly as they may barely know the men present in the household they end up in.

I know that doesn't exactly answer your question.

On a separate note, the only way that this teach women's rights scheme is going to work is if it is designed and led by women's rights activists from the cultures in question.

And that same would apply for any scheme on care of the elderly in particular communities. People from those communities who campaign around rights of elderly people would have to lead on that.

Wonderful care of the elderly always seems to get mentioned in these discussions about a variety of cultures, not just Afghanistan. It seems to be the contemporary form of the noble savage myth.

What does the UN know?

PPZ, I can't get your link to work. Do you have another one?

There are many, many different factors to take into consideration regarding care of the elderly. The points almondpudding makes are true. Some of those points would also be true in the UK, except that we have a state pension, so the second point is moot, and points three and four are cultural in that often, people (both men and women) brought up in the British culture would rather live alone than with distant family. Luckily, for the most part, in Britain, elderly people are able to do that because of the state pension/welfare state. We also have state-funded nursing homes where elderly people can go if they are unable to look after themselves, and family are not equipped to do so - perhaps they all work (more and more common these days with households needing two incomes), or they can't afford a big enough house to fit the elderly person in (again, more and more common).

Dh is from a middle eastern county, and works in a care home here in the UK. At first, he had the exact same attitude as that young lad from Afghanistan that we're talking about here. But what he sees now is that the burden of care is always down to women, and that the elderly people are often victims of abuse, if not neglect, since nothing is regulated and no-one checks on whether the elderly people are being looked after properly or not.

It is indeed a nice dream to be cuddled up in the bosom of your family in your dotage, to be looked after by your daughter/son/daughter-in-law/son-in-law/grandchildren, but those people will all be working until they're 67 so who is going to pick you up off the floor or take you to the loo between the hours of 9 and 5? And what if those people have dreams of their own, perhaps to take a three-week cruise, or even just a week in a caravan in Dorset? Do they have to take you too? What if you are so frail by then that you can't travel? Does that mean they can't go because there is no-one else to look after you?

Do you, at the age of 95, really want your 75 year old daughter to be up in the night two or three times helping you to the loo? Or would it be better to get your 45 year old grandaughter to do it, who has only just started getting a full night's sleep each night now that her youngest is 4? I'm deliberately using women as examples, because as I said, it will almost certainly be the women that do it.

Thedancingbear, in the case of Afghanistan, the following things commonly happen:

1. Nobody is prepared to care for the elderly person, so they continue in paid employment until they die.
2. Nobody is prepared to care for the elderly person and they have no pension, so they beg and/or live on the streets until they die.
3. If male, they live with close family, and if no close family are available, charities are available to care for some elderly males.
4. If female, close or distant family will take them in on the basis that the elderly person will be doing domestic work in the household. Elderly women then have little opportunity to participate in society and are vulnerable to abuse, particularly as they may barely know the men present in the household they end up in.

This sounds very much like Mexico or any country where there are no decent universal pensions, or is there another way?

I would be interested to see the contrast with care in a first world country? Having worked in an old peoples' home in my youth, I am happily looking forward to the begging on the street option.

The UN have identified the burden of disproportionate unpaid care work on women as a major human rights issue, barrier to equality and factor contributing to extreme poverty

This sounds a bit back to front, surely it is poverty that means that women are unpaid carers?

Teaching 'values', even if possible (do we all agree what British values are? I doubt it) is probably doomed to failure.

However, informing people of laws, expected behaviours, rights and responsibilities, civics, services etc could be very useful, not least because new arrivals are likely to be more open to it.

Just the knowledge that DV is against the law, knowing the wide definition of DV, and knowing that people like health care providers can help you access services like Women's Aid could transform someone's life. More likely than just getting her husband in for evening classes where he is lectured to regard his wife as equal and tunes out after 5 minutes.

Talk of imposing culture and values in this way makes me uneasy. Fighting a hearts and minds battle has to be done a lot more subtly than this, and over the long-term. Let's just police behaviour properly instead.

Unpaid caring responsibilities is a thing that keeps women in poverty atenco, though I agree it could also work vice versa . A woman with significant caring responsibilities and no way to avoid them is a woman with less time to exploit any income generating or educational opportunities that might come along. Put bluntly, if you have to spend all your time caring for elderly relatives, unpaid, you're not going to be able to do anything else that might get you out of poverty. Many carers in the UK also have this problem, though of course the types of poverty would differ.

I don't have another link, I'm sorry. I'll try posting it again in two forms.

[http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A%2F68%2F293&Submit=Search&Lang=E]

www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A%2F68%2F293&Submit=Search&Lang=E

There's loads more out there but this was the first thing I thought of.

Let's just police behaviour properly instead

Quite.

Law and rules are black and white and thus not open to obfuscation and claims they are culturally incompatible.

It's not up for questioning or debate or whataboutery from anyone who wishes to live here.

They must be clearly spelled out, and more importantly, be seen to be enforced and subsequently punished appropriately if flouted.

We need to stop colluding in infringing women's rights in the name of political correctness. All women's rights.

Put bluntly, if you have to spend all your time caring for elderly relatives, unpaid, you're not going to be able to do anything else that might get you out of poverty

This is true anywhere in the world, however in most places you have to pay for a home for your elderly relatives or carers to come to the house. And if Afganistan wages are anything like wages in Mexico, working outside the home will not get you out of poverty. Minimum wage here is 4 dollars a day, while where I live, which is lower middle class the cheapest rent would be over $200 a month. Go figure! Poverty has really nothing to do with caring for the elderly

Yes of course it's true anywhere in the world. You say that like you think that's a refutation to the idea that unpaid care work is a cause as well as a consequence of poverty. Which it is, and anyone reading can decide whether they prefer your assertion or the research I linked to from the UN.

Your rent example doesn't work either, because that supposes that the woman has to earn enough to cover the rent herself rather than potentially being part of a household with a number of working adults in it (which would be more common in Afghanistan, single female headed households being something of a rarity there). Not that poor Afghans necessarily have rent to pay anyway. You can be very low income and also own land.

My mother had dementia and lived in a nursing home for the last years of her life. We did not 'put her on a home', she chose the home and paid for it. The staff were utterly amazing. They were absolutely great in the way they cared for her. Some cried when she died and I can honestly say I would have no idea how we would have coped with mum with this medical condition without such help.

Back the original post I think it is an excellent idea for all people, refugee/asylum seeker/UK citizens to know the laws and their rights and the expectations on their behaviour. It would be most useful for all men to understand what the law requires of them, and for women to understand their rights.