Should refugees be taught lessons on female equality?

[PinkyofPie]

Thangam Debbonaire MP, who chairs the all-parliamentary group on refugees, believes male refugees settling in Britain should be give lessons in women's equality. link here
This concern seems to have stemmed following the Cologne attacks.

Thoughts?

Yes. Look at the lovely gifted Nadiya Hussein from the GBBO. Parents wouldn't let her go to college, arranged a marriage with a total stranger when she was 18, home and babies. As it happened, her husband is a really nice guy who thought she should do something for herself and he seems really supportive. But why should it depend on his goodwill? And how many British born Nadiyas are there out there, deprived of the opportunities they should have?

"Cultural differences" has a lot to condemn it as an apologetic phrase for anything that happens where Western values butt against others

A' young Afghan man asked me if it was true that we in the UK place our elderly relatives away from the family in care homes. He couldn't comprehend why we would even consider it

The people who bang on about how ''in their culture, elderly, infirm relatives are never put in care homes'' are only able to do this because they get the women in their culture to do all the 'caring'. (ie washing, cooking, toileting, bathing)
The women get all the drudgery.

Nadiyas husband apparently go no end of abuse as well for ' letting his wife go on TV/ have a job/ hug a non relative in public'.

Yes, there are pockets of the Muslim community in Britain who are among the poorest in the country, partly because the British born women are used as chattels to bring illiterate husband into the UK. Their value is undermined, they are not allowed to work, and their husbands are incapable of working more than minimum wage jobs, (or sometimes below minimum wage), because they have no qualifications and send the money they have home to their families. In East London, there are signs in Bengali and English. Far from helping, these signs trap women who can't speak English in the home. Why should they go further than the street they live in? How can they go to the doctors on their own? It's a massive problem that's hidden in our communities. We are trapping women and tolerating these things on the basis of cultural sensitivity.

Your original mention of a young Afghan man querying how we treat old people illustrated someone who is not willing to integrate into western life

What?! Is it UnWestern to question something now? Is it a thought crime?

It is a completely normal thing to compare and contrast your new environment to your previous one and to ask questions about any differences. It's also normal to hold opinions too. Or is that not allowed for anyone from "unsuitable cultures"?

Atenco is right, the sweeping statements and bigotry on these threads is laughable.

With regards to the OP, refugees should all be given a thorough overview as to how society works, including social and cultural norms. I can't see that as a bad thing at all.

These opinions don't exist in a vacuum ipity. The newly arrived man who believes that women should be carers, should cover themselves, should be mothers rather than educated or working - these opinions affect all women who come into contact with him as well as the women in his own family. And his opinions are our business.

And his opinions are our business

Insofar as we are willing to lay out how we work in the enlightened West; that our women are equal and our girls will be educated; that we will not tolerate backward attitudes and sexist, repressive bollocks; that we are enlightened and your choice is: accept or leave.

There are unequivocally critical messages to give to refugees, of which the most important is that women hold a very important place in our society. If you choose not to respect that, there will be serious consequences, not least that you wil not be welcome here.

I can't hanging that's a problem for any right-thinking women?

The newly arrived man who believes that women should be carers, should cover themselves, should be mothers rather than educated or working

He didn't say any of that! He merely asked about the care of the elderly in the UK! and compared it to Afghanistan You've just made up the rest to satisfy your stereotypes.

If you choose not to respect that, there will be serious questions, not least that you won't be welcome here

For asking a question????

And no, his opinions are not your business, just because he is a refugee does not make him a lower form of life forbidden to have private thoughts or ask questions without being threatened with life changing consequences (being deported back to a warzone).

How are you meant to learn about this society without asking questions about it?

There are some scary opinions on here, but they aren't the ones held by a refugee asking questions about British life and society.

Insofar as we are willing to lay out how we work in the enlightened West; that our women are equal and our girls will be educated; that we will not tolerate backward attitudes and sexist, repressive bollocks

As this is the feminist board, I have to ask - do people feel that our western, enlightened UK society honestly believes this? Personally, it is how I feel. On this board, I am not so sure.

I don't think of it as being about the 'enlightened West.'

It is that there are a set of human rights which have been determined by the UN and international consensus.

If someone is a refugee that is often because they have come from a place where their rights were contravened.

In the UK, we are aiming to have a high standard go human rights, and that includes equality for women. This is not about imposing our culture on others, it is about making sure that everyone in the UK knows what global human rights are.

Not because 'we' are perfect, but because people need to know about these rights so they know how to treat others, how others should be treating them and when our government should be held to account. Knowing about equal rights is part of being able to participate as a citizen.

Ipity I am talking about the hypothetical man among the 1m+ migrants who have arrived in Europe in the last year alone from countries where women are generally regarded as less than men. The behaviour of many of them has caused real suffering already to women and children and serious open conversations need to be had about how we deal with this evident clash of cultures. It's evident that these conflicts exist one, two, three generations down the line which makes it even more pressing. You don't want to have any such conversations though and repeatedly try to shut down discussions with accusations of bigotry and prejudice. I don't think that works anymore though.

shins - How is countering what you are saying "shutting down discussions"? I am pointing out the implications of your statements.

Don't try and backtrack, you weren't talking about a hypothetical man, you were speaking in reference to CuttedUpPears actual person, that she had actually met and putting words into his mouth.

Tbh, I think your reference to 1m "migrants" speaks volumes, most of those people are not migrants, they are refugees.

Knowing about equal rights is part of being able to participate as a citizen.
Exactly. People need to know about the country they live in and how things work and that benefits everyone.

I just don't see where threatening people with deportation for asking questions, as suggested upthread, fits into this.

It probably doesn't fit in because I'm a random poster offering an opinion on the topic, and wasn't on whatever other thread this feud some of you are clearly involved in came from, so missed your epic personal backstory and posting history.

insofar as we are willing to lay out how we work in the enlightened West; that our women are equal and our girls will be educated; that we will not tolerate backward attitudes and sexist, repressive bollocks

As this is the feminist board, I have to ask - do people feel that our western, enlightened UK society honestly believes this? Personally, it is how I feel. On this board, I am not so sure

It has certainly been my experience of life - clever girl- will go as far as she wants.

Sorry almond, that part was aimed at shins, not you. The epic backstory/feud is news to me too.

I have no idea whose epic back story is being referred to

But He didn't say any of that! He merely asked about the care of the elderly in the UK! and compared it to Afghanistan You've just made up the rest to satisfy your stereotypes

But comparing treatment of the elderly in Afghanistan and the UK and somehow coming to the conclusion as Cuttedup did (against all evidence ) that it is worse in the UK seems to be to buying into the idea that western society is always at fault.

There is an interesting thread on AIBU by a woman who's dad abandoned her mum because he wanted a boy instead of a girl. Mum somehow bought up her daughter on her own. She (the OP) now works in the city.

The father now has a son. .. Who in the way of things will probably be bought up to think women are only used for housework and giving birth to sons...

I see no justification to respect that culture. Not here in England, nor in MENA.

I know th discussion has moved on a bit, but I have to disagree with sporting's assertion that our cultures are different, not better, but different.

That's total bullshit IMO. Equality is better than inequality. Religious tolerance is better than intolerance IMO. Democracy is better than dictatorship IMO. Freedom is speech is better than lashings for being an atheist IMO.

How many women in this country would freely choose to go and live in an MENA country if we had to live as the women do there? Fuck all I expect. Equality hasn't been achieved here yet, but it's a damn site better.

No epic backstory or feud here at all.

I was not referring to the Afghan man ipity; I reiterate I was referring to a hypothetical MENA man whose culture holds those views. You can point to all those MENA cultures where women have high status, education, participation in the labour market and can dress however they like without constant street harassment, I'd be delighted to be proved factually wrong. Or you can attempt to smear me as a racist or a bigot again, noting that it "says it all" that I refer to migrants rather than refugees. The Dutch EU commissioner did the same thing
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12123684/Six-in-ten-migrants-not-entitled-to-asylum-says-EU-chief.html
and Frontex and the EU -it is a fact that many economic migrants joined those fleeing the Syrian war. Unless you feel personally qualified to grant every one refugee status of course. I'm always glad to debate on this forum but I couldn't be bothered with these insinuations. I also note that I didn't suggest deportation for anyone, let alone "for asking questions"

As Shalli said, the burden on the wage earners is more for these family units and I'm afraid I don't have the insider knowledge to comment on who wipes whose elderly bum...

Rather disingenuous cutteduppear. Like you, I work with refugees and like you, I've not taken an arse wiping survey amongst my clients, but I know enough about the client group I work with and indeed the societies sending the greatest number of refugees and asylum seekers to the UK to know who tends to be doing the unpaid care work.

but it's interesting that the UK model of care of the elderly is not widely adopted across the world.

Depends on your definition of 'interesting', but it's been pretty conclusively explained why the Afghan model can 'work' there (well, if we can say it works when Afghanistan is such an awful country to be elderly) and wouldn't here. The UK model is actually pretty expensive, and most countries in the world are poorer than us as well as having fewer elderly people as compared to younger. I mean, do you really think Afghanistan as a society could emulate our care model even if the Afghans themselves wanted to?

Fundamentally, you were presenting the Afghan model of care as something positive, in that you said it was something we could do with learning from. But it's not, and it isn't, because it only exists due to a number of factors we should absolutely not look to replicate: many fewer elderly due to shorter life expectancies, very high birth rates and childrearing very young, and limiting the opportunities available to women.

I've also missed the epic backstory

David Cameron was cack handed in the announcement but right in the policy to encourage immigrant women to learn English - it's critical in order to be part of society, understand roles and responsibilities, and access services (including the police, health service and charities such as Women's Aid)

I suppose Hermione, I was countering the assertion that many on here felt that there is just as much sexism and inequality in the UK/Europe albeit of a different nature. Yes these things do exist but in a different way to the sexism and inequality in ME and across south Asia and indeed many other parts of the world. It doesn't take away from the fact that anyone coming here from a culture that is radically different in many ways may struggle to find their feet and make mistakes.

Pontypines is right in that orientation help with a number of things would help including understanding what society here expects of you. Like I said upthread this could include anything from navigating the intricacies of our bin collections to how to greet people in different situations and stuff like equality and general norms. If people know what is expected to start with we can only assume if they then do something like assault a woman that it is a concious choice and they face the consequences. But at least they will have the information.

I'm sorry about the backstory comment! I was just confused by Shins' post to Pontypines.

Maybe there are two separate issues here? Firstly, one about giving orientation to new arrivals here- most of us would agree it's a good idea. On a less dramatic note, when many eastern europeans started arriving in my neighbourhood, they didn't get the hang of putting the bins out on bin day for a few weeks , with the result that the street was strewn with the foxes' best bin ripping efforts . Probably no one told them.
Then there is the argument about certain cultures, predominantly muslim, where women are considered inferior to men in many domains. There's been a lot of reluctance until recently to openly discuss this. Witness the timorous ways in which the police then the mainstream media first addressed the sexual grooming of vulnerable girls by Asian gangs in rochdale, derby, oxford etc. Or the way FGM was ignored for decades. As for carers of the elderly, I work in a hospital and when elderly Asians are brought in by a carer it is rarely a son, more likely a daughter or daughter in law. The young Afghan is probably used to seeing women around him doing the caring and thinks it's right, the sacrifices involved for the carer probably don't occur to him . He's not likely to change his view until he is confronted with having to be a carer of a dependent adult. However it would probably be a good idea for him to receive classes in British values. Afghan men have been part of the aforementioned gangs.

The classes would be outsourced to someone like Serco, would be a mere excercise in box-ticking and a complete waste of time.