Safe place for budding feminists

[Mamaka]

As some of us have had our opinions, feelings and questions so completely bulldozed in other threads, I thought I'd try and start a safe place for newly questioning and of course veteran feminists to explore without fear of being misunderstood or ridiculed.

A couple of things I'd like to know:

I've just found out that there is no feminism group where I live and am seriously considering starting one but feeling a little unqualified for it. Any recommendations for where to start if I wanted to do this?

I've just read the equality illusion by Kat banyard in its entirety and now I'm feeling riled up. How can I start to move from anger and frustration towards positive action? (This is really what my previous thread should have been called!)

JohnJ, as this is a space for budding feminists, I'd prefer to go easy on the philosophy. Also, Mamaka started this thread as her other threads went wrong, not least because of your posts and the responses to them (in which i certainly include my own) so I'm not going to reply to you again here.

Mamaka, do you think you might start a group?

I don't know... I guess that i can't understand that loyalty towards your own children depends on their gender and what statistics say about said gender. If my child was accused of something,as heart wrenching as it would be i would accept any evidence and/or guilty verdict,but if their behaviour and personality stays as it now i wouldn't just accept an accusation.

There is a feminist theory section --->

I'm just reading along atm.

Oh no john found the thread

John

Go to the theory section.

Start a thread there.

HTH

I can't follow all the theory stuff. I mean, that's not to say I couldn't, but it's work I haven't yet done. I'm interested, and if I could find a sort of Feminists 101 reading list to get started I think I'd dive right in. But at the moment theory puts me off engaging, as it excludes those who don't have this knowledge. I really hoped as this was stated to be a budding feminists thread, That posters would understand that it's not a place where theoretical feminism was appropriate.

rebel I think it's more that I understand a lot about male sexual offending, through feminist discourse, reading the news, professional interest and personal experience. I know men groom victims and look for vulnerable women specifically to avoid prosecution by raising a question about consent. I know 30% of men are in the potential rapist category and add groping/sexual assault and numbers are higher. So its not outside the realms of possibility one of my son's could be in that category and if they were then they'd be likely to lie and use rape myths to justify what they'd done. It would turn my stomach. I don't like thinking about it but I think to blindly defend my son in those circumstances when I know what I know would be naive.

I know next to nothing about female offending. The cases I do know about are teachers who say they love a particular boy, women who are in some kind of kinky relationship with a violent man (like shauna hoare) and a couple of women who were transgender and their partner didn't know. I haven't seen any evidence women are predatory in the same way and I haven't read any explanations of female offending. Numbers of women in prison for sex crimes are miniscule compared to men. So I just don't know enough about it to imagine what I would think if my daughter was accused, or what the nature of her denial would be and whether or not it's believable.

Hope that makes sense. I'm a bit tired of justifying this now though. On the other thread I got a load of vitriol that I would doubt my son and on this one I'm getting it for saying that I might not doubt my daughter. Can't win. As I say it's only my opinion.
If anyone does know about any studies into the nature of female sexual offending I would be very interested.

lass as you said on the abortion thread I do know it's illogical too

Sorry felas,i didn't mean to male you feel attacked or targeted with my question/comments. But thank you for explaining the way you did. We look at things differently that's all. If i may ask another question and you don't have to answer.. Would age make a difference how you look at things?

Just fully caught up with the thread.

Hope you come back buffy.

Some very thought provoking stuff. I know my child can lie to my face, unblinking. So I think if they were ever called to question over something like this - there would always be immediate doubt in their innocence.

Good points on talking to young boys on being an girls being enthusiastic participants very early on. The whole culture of sex being taboo needs to be smashed so we can talk about this - although I think we are still way off that yet.

I have two girls and one on the way so no boys but I've seen my grandparents, parents and mil - treat their sons like kings and women are here to serve them. Even yesterday my grandmother phoned me from Lisbon (on holiday) to ask me to get my brother who lives with her, a tin of corned beef for his sandwiches for tomorow. He is 30. I'm really struggling with whether to get it as I know if I don't she will feel I let her down.

For me it's very strange to watch my family members and friends pander to their little boys and put them so high up.

So I don't think it's just about not believing your son capable of rape I think it's much more deeper that that.

I'm all very new to this so all ^^^ of that is probally waffle and crap.

I took that long to type buffy came back !

Happy to answer rebel but I don't quite understand what you mean? Do you mean an age differential? Is it something specific?

Great post dutch
I feel like there is something deeper lurking which is why I was asking if saying you wouldn't believe your child is something about needing to be your child defender (even when you know they can lie without blinking ) or whether sex crimes are in some way different. Or even whether it's somehow worse to not believe a male. I don't know.

Felas there is one specific example i had in mind,but bcs they're both 4 it's perfectly innocent ,even though it made me uneasy and prompted some (a bit too heavy) talks. But maybe we should keep theoretical to fend off any possible attacks on you(or possibly even me..who knows?) . So i guess i'll rephrase my question,for you and anyone else that wants to join, at what age does a child/ boy become "part" of the male statistic consideration? Hope this makes sense..running on empty tonight

But was Buffy dragged back and is now a tortured soul who doesn't really want to be here? (Er.. vague Buffy recollection, couldn't resist)

Dutchcourage, are you going to buy the corned beef?

Last weekend I went out with a friend and her partner texted her 3 times asking her about the freshness of the corned beef in their fridge. He finally called her about it. It was both amusing and annoying for her. But he really really can't be that incompetent. He has a very good job.

That book looks good.

I was looking at events to attend as a different way of accessing learning. Spotted this. I don't have childcare to go to London on a week night but it looks pretty perfect for new feminists if anyone is in London.

guardian masterclass understanding the history of feminism

This might seem an odd viewpoint, but in a family where the dad is still around and the boy rapes and is convicted...how does the dad feel? How does the mum feel about the dad? I think I might feel as if they had a lot to answer for by not instilling better male virtues - which is a bit much considering I would be half the parent too. For the record I am single! However, if the man of the household has perhaps had the odd jeer or insulting comment about women (which in my experience many men do - driving for example) throughout the boys life and I had always done what I see so many mums do, roll my eyes or give him a harmless smack on the leg in reprehension...I would be guilty, but would I feel angrier at him? I think I would. No idea what that makes me. Probably thinking too much about a man's role in a boy's life because I've heard so much about it as a single parent!

felas I think it's deeper than being protective/defender . I think it's about some womens need to nurture a God in their own homes. Even in religion there is a man sat at the top of the tree, its always a mans face with a beard looking down from heaven.

Men = God.

Something that I don't find surprising is that it was Eve that was supposed to have fucked up and spoiled everything.

So if we are taught things like this from an early age (I have a strong catholic back ground although atheist) then from day dot we are told men are God - women are weak/evil.

Ooh good question.
There's a lot of research that boys are treated preferentially from very early - encouraged to contribute opinions, that kind of thing. There's even research showing sex stereotypes influence how adults perceive babies crying from as early as 3 months medicalxpress.com/news/2016-04-gender-stereotyping-young-monthsstudy-babies.html.
That's socialization which I guess most feminists believe is a big part of the male condition AKA patriarchy.
With respect to sex offending, my feeling is that children before puberty can't be held to the same standards as those post puberty because they aren't subject to adult sex drives and desires. I think sexually inappropriate behaviour in younger children is more often viewed as a sign they have been abused tthemselves,
With very little children (like 4 year olds) I would see it as experimentation and normal but a good opportunity to talk about boundaries and appropriate behaviour.

Yes dutch and I don't think its coincidence that the apple is symbolic of sexual temptation.
Even in the bible there is a strong narrative that men can't control themselves in the face of women's temptingness That does show how ingrained it is. I hadn't though of that. Thanks!

Jeffrey I take it you've read the letter Brock Turners father wrote to the judge. Its quite clear where Brock gets his ideas from imo
heavy.com/news/2016/06/brock-turner-father-dad-dan-turner-full-letter-statement-stanford-rapist/

trying I don't know. She gets back late tomoro and will walk to the shop if I don't. She is 84. I'm also thinking about tidying up as he has made a bloody mess. I've honestly nearly come to blows with him over crap like this but ultimately she enables this shit but that's a whole other thread

Yes Fela I agree completely. I also saw the ones his friends who weren't even at the party wrote. But as the wife of Brock's dad, I would be raging at him. I would feel responsible for 'putting up with it' and not showing my kids a better example, but I would probably put 80% of it on the father (particularly if they were like Brock's dad). Do we think men would give it the same amount of thought? I think most would but then some would be just like Brock's dad...

I suppose (and I'm typing as I am thinking here) that I am wondering how you get men who think of women as objects/lesser etc to teach DC the correct moral codes. I know this is something I worried about with my ex and part of why I didn't want him influencing them. But many women do stay with these types and, usually because their ethos makes them dominating, the women do little to combat sexism in the home. How can we even start getting through to these families? Tackle the fathers? Is there a scheme for this in the rape charity spectrum?