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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Safe place for budding feminists

376 replies

Mamaka · 21/07/2016 15:39

As some of us have had our opinions, feelings and questions so completely bulldozed in other threads, I thought I'd try and start a safe place for newly questioning and of course veteran feminists to explore without fear of being misunderstood or ridiculed.

A couple of things I'd like to know:

I've just found out that there is no feminism group where I live and am seriously considering starting one but feeling a little unqualified for it. Any recommendations for where to start if I wanted to do this?

I've just read the equality illusion by Kat banyard in its entirety and now I'm feeling riled up. How can I start to move from anger and frustration towards positive action? (This is really what my previous thread should have been called!)

OP posts:
tryingtomakesenseoflife · 22/07/2016 10:07

I think the anger is a fairly typical thing to feel. And it's a rational reaction to the conclusion that there's unfairness built into the basic structures of society. I mean, that's at least annoying, right?

Yes, that does sound rational.

I'm very angry though. Everyone was busily defending that they dont hate all men (does that set off a klaxon?!) while I was thinking, er... I think I might. Blush

So while I know it's nonesense to be afraid of feminism, i wonder will it fuel my feelings in an unhelpful way right now. The problem being my emotions, not feminism. Or is learning more a good way to move towards more appropriate anger.

I did think of finding a random issue to throw myself at to get rid of some of the angry energy. I'm not keen on zoos! Maybe missing the point!

I love the talk about women's achievements throughout history. My 6yo would live that. Might get researching.

The online course link looks great too. Had a quick look.

I might linger around the periphery of feminism for now. Which probably jars with what most of you are about.

NotQuite, I hope you work out things your son. We're at the beginning of working things through. I was considering some private children's psychotherapy for my eldest son. He is coping well with recent separation but already had some anxiety issues, nervous tics etc. Has been a far from ideal start to life. Wondering if your DS had counselling and was it helpful?

tryingtomakesenseoflife · 22/07/2016 10:10

Oh, just realised how long that was!

Mamaka I don't know if I'm getting this wrong, but I've seen you on the relationships board over last while. I think there's a certain strength or fight in your recent posts and maybe you shouldn't worry too much about men right now.

RebelRogue · 22/07/2016 10:12

I debated a long time whether to post this or not...but fuck it. I just take people (men and women ) as they come. Do they deserve me to give a flying fuck about them? Do they give a flying fuck about me? Do they care if i'm upset/if they've upset me? Are they just take take take or it's an equal relationship. Etc. If yes,i offer them them the same courtesy , if not ,i have no patience left for them and i'm very selective with people i do let myself truly care about.

P.s. I've been abused in many ways by men,but the only abuse that was long lasting came from women. So no one gets the benefit of the doubt based on their gender. Some people are shits

MatildaOfTuscany · 22/07/2016 10:44

Dilberry - I've been thinking about your post and your question about your son. It's such a hard one, isn't it? At one and the same time children desperately want to fit in (humans being social animals) and want to be one of the "in" crowd, and as a parent you want to foster their social instincts, but at the same time, when that "in" crowd is modelling behaviour you're not comfortable with, what do you as a parent do (and at what stage do you step back and start to let your children have more autonomy). And for me as a feminist and a parent, the difficult trick is balancing the fact that, like it or hate it, we live in a society where social acceptance hinges on understanding (though not necessarily conforming to) gender roles, while not buying into the harmful aspects of gender roles and equipping one's children to challenge them or move away from them where appropriate. With a DS (the challenges are different with daughters, because society constructs gender roles differently) most of the issue arise round expression of feelings vs. stiff upper lip, a construction of masculinity built round competition and physical prowess vs. boys who are drawn to quieter, gentler pastimes, and how to help quieter boys form friendship groups when a large part of the social aspect of childhood for boys is built round rough-and-tumble.

My DS is 8 now, and one of the most important things for me has been encouraging him to become a kind and considerate person - I've been a laid back parent (possibly bordering on slack) on a lot of things, but the one thing I have zero tolerance for is unkindness towards others. I think I've also been lucky in that he is a very nice-natured, kind child.

Two things spring to mind, though, in connection with your query. One is not tolerating bad behaviour from others. It struck me in his toddlerdom, one day in a local park when some other boys were trying to exclude him from a piece of play equipment that the flip side of encouraging him to be kind to others was that I had to equip him with strategies for dealing with people who weren't being kind to him, and I couldn't let this sort of behaviour go - I had to be on his side. I adopted the approach recommended by a teacher friend of mine, which is to intervene by asking questions: "Why are you doing this?", "How would you feel if someone did this to you?", "How do you think your mum would feel if she could see you behaving like this?" About 9 times out of 10 this will work. The 10th time you meet an intransigent child, but it's worth remembering that their intransigence is often based on what they've seen modelled at home. So I find I can talk to DS about how some people choose to behave badly, that it gets them a short-term gain but cuts them off from a lot of much nicer, friendlier interactions, and what sort of strategies are available for dealing with people like this (keeping out of their way, talking to the teacher, etc.)

The other thing I've found very helpful is that DS's school has very effective policies about bullying, inclusion and being kind to one another. So for instance, two children choosing to play a game on their own is fine - that's a choice they're making. But when all of the class bar one are choosing to play a game but deliberately excluding that one person - that's not fine. This approach seems to really work - I'm always impressed by how caring and engaged with each other the children seem to be. So it might be worth going into your DS's school and asking what they have by way of policies on inclusion, sharing, joining in games. (DS's school uses a thing called "Kelso's choices" for conflict resolution - a wheel illustrating the things you can do if you've fallen out with someone: walk away, join another game, wait for your temper to cool down, talk to the teacher, tell them to stop, apologize... The emphasis is on giving the children the resources to think about what the appropriate response in a given situation is.)

BlurtonOnKites4eva · 22/07/2016 13:33

Not caught up, but fuck me. I just read mamakas original thread. What a joke.

tryingtomakesenseoflife · 22/07/2016 13:47

There were 2. I posted in the relationships one and actually I think there's a fairly similar discussion about raising children happening there at the moment.

JeffreyNeedsAHobby · 22/07/2016 14:21

Yes, they appear to have taken over the thread rather than starting their own with a relevant title Hmm

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 22/07/2016 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JeffreyNeedsAHobby · 22/07/2016 14:29

This is true! Every silver cloud Grin
I've just had a lot of abuse on social media trying to defend against racism - lots of "You stupid woman" "You idiotic woman" "your education was wasted on you" "typical lefty liberal woman you are everything wrong with this country". All from middle aged white men.

I'm so depressed at the state of this country.

tryingtomakesenseoflife · 22/07/2016 14:49

I thought it was interesting that it had evolved into a similar discussion - in a positive way. Given the lack of common ground before. Am I missing the point?

Mamaka · 22/07/2016 15:35

Erinaceus - that list was helpful as was the link, thank you. Hadn't thought of Meetup or WI.

Buffy - those 2 observations about patriarchy are - among many others - what get me all angry!

I am currently on what the Equality Illusion calls the sticky floor of women's work - low status, low paid work - because I had a few years out of employment while dc were babies. This low status work also offers me flexibility so I can work around my dc. In one way this is fine and was what I was looking for, for now at least. In another way I know that I am capable of so much more and it's frustrating spending my precious time doing such menial work and being paid a pittance for it.

Scallops - I've been recommended freedom programme before and really want to do it. There isn't one nearby though so would have to be online. Will look into it in September I think. My perceptions are definitely off (they have never really been on!) and I've been working on them over the last few months. Mumsnet relationships board has actually been a useful resource to start me off. They're very clued up on abuse over there. Notquite and trying - you may find some useful threads there re your dc.

OP posts:
Mamaka · 22/07/2016 15:39

Trying - yes I noticed that, I had to laugh at how the thread has developed.

OP posts:
Xenophile · 22/07/2016 16:00

Hi, love the new thread and glad you posted it.

I have to sleep for a couple of hours because I started work at a really stupid time this morning, but will be back later.

It's so good to see newly fledged feminists.

tryingtomakesenseoflife · 22/07/2016 16:27

maybe you shouldn't worry too much about men right now. I meant worry too much about any negative impact on men.

Felascloak · 22/07/2016 17:54

trying I think some, maybe even most, of us have to take a step back every now and again as it is so rage making. Garlic had a fab thread about it on here a couple of months ago.
I hate the patriarchy and am very wary of all men. Been in big trouble here before for saying if my son's were accused of rape I wouldn't necessarily believe them if they said they hadn't done it. But, people can fuck off if they think I'm being extreme. I'm a rational analytical person and data plus my own experience tells me men aren't to be fully trusted.

boldlygoingsomewhere · 22/07/2016 18:18

This is a great idea for a thread. I feel like I've become more radical in my feminism since having children and approaching middle age. The ingrained sexism seems so much more obvious- I'm also ashamed that when I was younger I was so dismissive of motherhood and having children. Once I had my own I became so conscious of the fact that I'd absorbed those 'low status, women's work' messages. It made me want to apologise to my mother and tell her how great she was. Sad

tryingtomakesenseoflife · 22/07/2016 19:10

Wow feelascloak what a difficult thought. No judgement at all from me. Is that the logical conclusion of my feelings. No wonder I feel sick thinking about men and my sons in the same space. Are you able to contextualise those thoughts and keep them in a theoretical place?

I feel the need to say I have 2 amazing little boys. I assume my love for them is a given here.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 22/07/2016 19:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tryingtomakesenseoflife · 22/07/2016 19:40

Oh ok, that's a better explanation. (Obviously not actually good, hope you get what I mean Confused)

Felascloak · 22/07/2016 21:19

tryingto Yes it is quite horrifying for me too Sad. I mean in the context of his wird against hers, no clear explanation as to why she might nake it up. I really really hope and pray that would never happen. I'm trying very hard to raise my children (boys and girls) with a good sense of consent and other people's boundaries. But if it were to happen my default wouldn't be that the woman was making it up. There's no way I'd be behaving like ched Evans wife or Adam Johnson sister, for example.
I love my sons unconditionally so that wouldn't stop whatever.

Felascloak · 22/07/2016 21:20

Sorry for all the typos :)

DilberryPancake · 22/07/2016 21:23

MatildaOfTuscany, indeed, it is challenging when the other children have such different parenting models from my own.

I think DS has a strong sense of justice. He is incredibly sweet and considerate. But I'll try the method that you suggested in making more analysis of the behaviour of other children.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 22/07/2016 21:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Felascloak · 22/07/2016 21:32

Exactly buffy
In the same way, if my daughter was driving badly and hit a pedestrian I wouldn't be rushing to try to explain it away with things like "well that pedestrian is wearing dark clothes". I'd be extremelying disappointed and upset with her but I'd still love her.
Actually (thinking aloud) those would be my feelings about all illegal behaviour. I wouldn't be trying to protest my children's innocence without good reason if they were charged with any crime. So why is it so shocking to say that about rape?

RebelRogue · 22/07/2016 22:11

I guess felas it's because you only refer to your sons(yes i know only men can rape) ,so i guess the question is,if any of daughters was accused of sexually assaulting another person,with just word against word,would you have the same stance?

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