Safe place for budding feminists

[Mamaka]

As some of us have had our opinions, feelings and questions so completely bulldozed in other threads, I thought I'd try and start a safe place for newly questioning and of course veteran feminists to explore without fear of being misunderstood or ridiculed.

A couple of things I'd like to know:

I've just found out that there is no feminism group where I live and am seriously considering starting one but feeling a little unqualified for it. Any recommendations for where to start if I wanted to do this?

I've just read the equality illusion by Kat banyard in its entirety and now I'm feeling riled up. How can I start to move from anger and frustration towards positive action? (This is really what my previous thread should have been called!)

Hi! Thanks for making a new thread. I wanted to but couldn't think of an appropriate title! Had to hide the others
I've looked for feminist groups in my area but the local one seems to be in hibernation. I'm a bit worried too about being too radical in my views and getting into arguments. Feeling a bit bruised after a few threads on here and I don't know if I could hack it irl.
We could do a Facebook group and moderate it carefully?

I'm not here to rehash any arguments because I do believe you are entitled to walk away from a discussion, but I do want to say that I have a son also, and that I am interested in other people's ideas in the best strategies for bringing him up.

My son is very gentle and struggles with rowdy boys. I wonder what to say to him sometimes when he says that other boys have been aggressive with him. He is five and gets very confused by rough behaviour.

I've never considered trying to find a feminist group. I live in a major University city, so I'm sure there must be one.

He himself is 'atypical', hates football, does ballet, loves music, has long 'surf dude' hair, loves music and drama, writes endless stories, but also loves minecraft, aeroplanes, cars and race drivers, speed and loud silliness. I find him a fascinating mix, but he is aware himself that he's 'different' to the idea of 'a boy'

Why do you describe your son as "atypical"? Isn't that doing exactly what you would criticise parents who push gender stereotyped roles? There are "typical " boys and your son.

My son loved kicking a ball around but generally hated sport. He loves music, (his degree is in music) drama and theatre, had and still has no interest in cars. He is very gentle and kind and a huge softy about animals (as are all the family) He is not an atypical anything, he is just himself.

I'm a bit surprised you list liking music as being atypical- if anything the people I know who are really passionate about music , other than myself are male. Most of my female friends and acquaintances seem to view music as a pleasant background noise.

"1. Is the way you feel doing actual harm to any men? Or are you just advocating that they should not get to benefit from (or be excused for) exploiting/abusing women, including you personally, any more?"

Hi Buffy, this may sound odd but growing up in an abusive environment means that I find it hard to define whether my actions are appropriate or not. The various men in my life have all at some point tried to insist on me being less vocal and more meek, obedient and compliant. The more my voice has grown the more they would claim it is harmful. I realise that does not necessarily mean I am harming them but I question myself a lot. It's not hard to see that all this self doubt and squashing of my opinions is building resentment which is leading to the less than loving feelings described in the other thread.

The benefit is that I've stopped caring how they (the men in my life) feel. The downside is that somewhere along the way I also stopped caring about how other men feel. At the moment I find it quite hard to give a flying fuck what they think or how they feel on any topic, ever. However I realise this may just be a passing reaction to suddenly having my eyes opened to the injustice and inequality around me. It's like being in the dark then suddenly turning the light on, it hurts your eyes while you're adjusting to the light.

I think a lot of mum's without dads in the picture (or not great/good/competant dads) worry about male role models. I worry about it for my DD and I know many people who would say because she is a girl it isn't as important (I however don't think like that). I think often the parent who can see how things may pan out, who takes the time to think of the effects of behaviour is likely to notice and worry about these things. It is surely a sign of good parenting already?
FWIW I have never sad a bad word about 'dad' and have managed to apparently make him someone DC would like to see despite a complete non-existent shit given for over 5 years... I agree with pp who said all behaviour can be un-learned. It is not your job to make him half him half you - you can show him how to be kind and calm and happy. Maybe talk about ways that are not hurtful to get any aggression out? I had an abusive father and it didn't twig that I bullied a girl in junior school in much the same way he did me until I was in my early 20's! I blanked it out as somewhere between 7-10 I managed to change my behaviour from a complete nightmare to a relatively average teen. It is all about example and patience. We don't always get it right but if we keep trying and showing love that always wins out against anger if they have to choose a parent to be around/as a role model.

By the way! Right after reading the Equality Illusion I made the grave mistake of reading something called Hot Feminist by Polly Vernon. Please. Learn from my mistake and don't read it.

Can I join in?

I'm particularly interested in local groups.

And all the other stuff.

As an adjunct to Buffy's post above, examining women in history can also show the difficulties they faced at the time. I did not know until recently that although Marie Curie was the first person to win 2 Nobel prizes and still the only person to have won them in different science disciplines, she was never admitted to the Academy of Science and only got her job at the Sorbonne because her husband was killed.

Has anyone read "A Book For Her" ? A friend recommended it earlier after a discussion about the last thread. She said it was a funny book and a good way to get into feminism. Feels a bit weird buying a 'book about feminism' - like some self help craze!

Not mocking feminist writings, just not something I would have though to buy before today!

Jeffrey, that's got me thinking.

When I'm tired, stressed or ill, I've become aware that I default to speaking and acting a little like my father. He was top level military, and it showed in his parenting and not in a good way. Sharp, cutting sarcasm was his favourite way of communicating, always going for the put down. I hate it when his voice comes out of me, and luckily I'm generally calm, but it lurks somewhere inside.

Finding ways that are not hurtful to get the aggression out are hard for DS. He has had a lot of therapy because he punches and kicks and smashes up the house when angry, but usually the anger is just a desperate cover for fear and sadness, which he doesn't want to feel. He goes from a standing start to explosion with no warning. Very little opportunity to head it off, and utterly unreachable whilst angry. All I can do is talk once he's calm, and try to get him to accept and feel difficult feelings. He hates this.

I will keep trying and keep showing love. I guess I just have to have faith he will eventually get there, it just seems I have this little window before he's a teen in which to resolve some of these issues or he will become unmanageable.

I don't think it needs to stop when he is a teen. You may find he wants more from you on that level, who knows? We all have traits we sense aren't great (e.g "I'm turning into my mother!" is often said in times of anger or stress - probably save that diamond for another thread ) but, in my mind, I recognise that so I know I am not like that all of the time. Therefore most of the time I am me and reflecting other emotions and behaviour. I do try to apologise to DC if I think I have acted unfairly and explain why or how it made me feel but that I know it wasn't right. I think that is all you can do - more than I ever got from my parents at any rate! No one is perfect and to be honest you sound like a lovely thoughtful lady who wants to do the best for her kids. That is all a kid needs.

"Hot Feminist by Polly Vernon."

I read a review of that

Dilbery, sorry your son is getting hassled. Does he have any other boys who are friends who are more gentle?

I think the trouble is that he has his heart set on being friends with a particular crowd of boys. And they are all much more rowdy than him. He was always the boy in nursery who wanted to kiss and cuddle the other children. I think he is finding school a real culture shock. I just don't know whether to encourage him to stay gentle or try to toughen him up to inure him against the rowdy others. My gut feeling is to carry on babying him.

Jeffrey a lovely thoughtful lady who wants to do the best for her kids. That is all a kid needs.

Not true, I'm afraid. A lot of children and parents need help and support with issues in order to support them best. Just loving and wanting to do the best does not give you the knowledge to give them the best upbringing.

Notquite have you tried a worry box? He might be a bit too old for it but you can ask.
Can he articulate/recognise when the anger gets him? Let him express that through words so he can say i'm angry! I'm sad i'm frustrated etc which is then acknowledged.

Does he have a safe room or corner where he can go where he starts feeling like that? Or an anger cushion where he can go and punch,scream,cry in it? I know many people disagree but i think it's a way to exert some control over his feelings.
Have you looked into something like martial arts which teaches discipline,mind over matter that kind of stuff,and ofc an outlet for his energy.

Is he still having therapy? Sounds like he needs it to deal with everything that happened x

Ideas for you to think about:

• Look on MeetUp. Start a MeetUp group.
• Go to your local WI for a session or two. You may not become a WI convert and you may make the connection you need.
• Go to a local political event. You do not have to be political. You just meet political people.
• Volunteer with the elderly. The elderly are wise.
• Refer to your involvement in feminist politics as identity politics. My experience is that this is label transforms the reaction to your argument. It is also a label that alienates fewer people, encompasses more struggles, and sounds intriguing.
• Take this course. You can start today if you would like to. I have completed this course and am happy to talk about my experiences.

I'm very lucky in that I have had a career that was in a very masculine industry, and have done many things which I can instantly 'pull out of the bag' as examples of how women CAN do anything, but, I somehow don't want my daughter thinking that 'beating' men in a field is the route to happiness.....I don't want her to think that equality means pursuing male interest activities or work just to feel like a success?

So every time I see her pushing a toy pram I have a dilemma about leaving her to it or pushing something less stereotypical on her! So hard....

rage caring for babies is a good skill for boys and girls so I would leave her to it!
notquite I just read a book called The Chimp Paradox (not a feminist book) which might be interesting. It's self help so depends if you'd read that, but has some interesting stuff about how your brain works under stress which you might find helpful.
mama I still care about how men feel but I have realised I care too much! It's annoying. I know what you mean about seeing the light. It's a bit of a struggle sometimes

Mamaka, do you need to care what other men think/feel (your DC excepted, of course)? It is quite liberating not to.

I think Buffy's comment about harming men with your actions was meant to be a bit more harm that hurting their feelings because you said things too harshly/stridently/angrily/harpishly/naggingly/. I'm sure these men will claim you are abusive. It's projection.

Apologies if this has been suggested before but have you done the Freedom Programme? I believe that can be quite good at resetting your "what is normal" compass.

Yes, I thought that as soon as I typed it caroldecker - yesterday was a long day!

I've been considering whether I have time for a man in my life recently and I'm not sure I do. I worry that what I would expect would be someone to do the more female roles while I work. While I understand a lot of men are happy to be house husbands, with previous DC it's quite alarming how much the rates of abuse to the DC and to me go up if a new man is introduced. Am I being paranoid worrying about that? It feels like upsetting the apple cart but I would quite like more kids in a few years if I can. I also worry I have become so independent that a lot of the effort involved in a new relationship seems so time consuming and then I have the worry they will just end up expecting me to do everything and become a manchild. I have a few men who have been hovering about for years and one ex recently said "I don't want you to be bitter about men because of me. You and DC deserve a shot at real happiness." I was livid as actually we have a lovely life and I don't need a man to be happy. Also annoyed that he thought I was "bitter" and that HE had made my life so shit he could take some perverse credit for the fact I'd never want to hook up again. I hate the power games!