Where do you stand on banning the sex trade?

[PinkyofPie]

I'm a radfem but I have done very little research into the banning of the sex trade and sex workers, but I know it's a bit of a hot topic at the moment, and the likes of the (vile) Paris Lees is a champion for sex workers.

I can't imagine why anyone would think protecting legal rights for the sex trade would be good for women. Can anyone enlighten me to their views?

As I see it, thanks to Rubbishs sterling contribution, men wanting sexual release have three main options:

1. Night out, try to find a woman for a one-night stand.

2. Masturbation

3. Employ an 'escort'.

Reasoning seems to be 2) is cheap but not so enjoyable. 1) and 3) both potentially expensive, yet 1) is not preferable since after you bought her all those drinks and paid her all those compliments, she might have the temerity to go home on her own. 3), well, you get value for money, she won't say no, and you only have to pretend she likes it, or just not give a fuck about the fact that she isn't having sex with you because she actually wants to.

The real issue here is many men seem to view 1) and 3) as almost equivalent, because they certainly don't view women as fellow human beings with their own interests and attractions as human beings you might want to spend some quality time with. Nope, one night stands and casual bar pick-ups are just effectively prozzies without the associated customer service..........

Funny old world it is, when misgendering someone attracts greater censure than freely sharing the information that you might have raped a vulnerable or coerced woman for money.

Yeah.
Really revealing, that.

It never ceases to amaze me that pointing out that we realise that many men think of women this way, is regarded as more worthy of pursed-lipped mockery from men like Mr Cadno here, than the actual evidence on the thread that many men do actually think of women like this.

Could that possibly be because Mr cadno here approves of and agrees with men who think of women like this, and therefore feels no desire to mock them?

Just a thought.

Rubbish123 I think you need to re-align your moral compass. Whilst I am not fundementally opposed to the concept of sex for money, I find it unsupportable in today's society. I'm sure many women may enjoy it, and maybe in some contexts there is no problem with it, but given how dangerous a profession it is (of which there is undeniable data), and how so many women would find themselves destitute without it we have no idea of knowing which women find the whole thing an ordeal or not. Thus you're rolling the dice each time you engage in it that you are contributing to some poor soul's abuse. You may not intend that but the more you engage in the practice it becomes more of a statistical certitude that's what you are contributing to.

Although you probably won't you have an opportunity to reflect and perhaps advocate against this exploitation and make up for some of the damage done. I have a niece I would dearly love to grow up to a different world with a healthier, more responsible and mutually pleasurable attitude towards sexuality.

Rubbish

Those women don't want your dick inside them. It's in their economic interest to pretend they do, not to mention their fear for their personal safety, with respect to you of their pimp if you are displeased with their act.

Picture yourself in a room with Mike Tyson, waving £50. He'd like to put his dick in your mouth for that. Or maybe in your ass. Still think it's just a transaction when it's your orifices and a larger, stronger person's penis? A person you have no attraction to?

SomeDyke has nailed it!

There are a huge number of masturbatory aids available nowadays, not just porn but all kinds of devices they can stick their cocks into. (Reading the descriptions, most sound better than the real thing!) How then do men justify claiming they "must" have access to women to get an orgasm?

When prostitution is discussed, 99% of the time the focus is on the woman and her "right" to "choose" to sell sexual access to her body.

And yet there are probably 100 men buying sex for every woman selling. I am sick of these punters being invisible. They hide in the shadows and let the women they use fight the cause on their behalf.

It's time we turned our attention to them.

How many men would be harmed if they were no longer able to buy access to women's orifices? NONE

How many women would be saved from harm if prostitution were abolished? MILLIONS

I rest my case.

Did you all know that the Home Affairs Committee will publish its report on prostitution on June 18, 2016 at midnight. That is TOMORROW! This provides the basis for whether we legalise or criminalise it.

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/home-affairs-committee/news-parliament-2015/160615-prostitution-report-note/

oh yes let's not forget that many men seem to "NEED" porn to even masturbate these days.

It's ALL about the men.

Curvist I didn't know that and will follow with interest. It is wrong that I am expecting the worst?

Ah the report has been postponed "indefinitely" due to the murder of Jo Cox.

oh I see Paris Lees (who I believe lived most of their life as a male) has given evidence supporting full decriminalisation:

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/home-affairs-committee/prostitution/oral/33252.html

It is scandalous that instead of hearing from two of the thousands of ordinary prostitutes, parliament heard from only two. One who has spend most of her (his?) life as a male, and the other who is extremely privileged and has a PhD. Here is the video of their evidence.

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/home-affairs-committee/news-parliament-2015/160506-prostitution-evidence/

I'm guessing the Ph.D. Was Brooke Magnanti? The woman who thinks young women being enticed into prostitution by her work is a price worth paying for her writing career, as she admitted to Julie Bindel in the Guardian.

This gives you a flavour of Paris Lees' evidence.

Paris Lees: Well I can’t believe that I am speaking to seven middle-aged men in suits who are telling me that this is violence against women. That completely overlooks the fact that guys and transgender people do this as well. To characterise this as exploitation of women is completely ridiculous. If there is exploitation, that is already illegal. No, I have not met anybody like that. I have friends who I have done it with—friends who I used to work with. A friend of mine who did it did not encourage me to do it, but I saw she was doing all right and she had money

Yes Flora. Neither of them is remotely representative. But the committee isn't stupid. They must be perfectly aware that the only women who have come forward to defend their "right" to trade in female flesh are not in the least qualified to do so.

The fact is, women who want the trade made legal are those who want to open brothels and make lots of dosh off other women's bodies. They won't be doing the dirty work themselves. Very empowering for them, but not for the women they will exploit. Oh, and I would bet every penny I own that none of them will allow their daughters and granddaughters to be prostitutes either.

More from Paris Lees:

"I would not have been able to put myself through university without sex work; I would not have got my degree or been able to establish myself in the media, or have been able to get a public profile for myself to talk about these issues and have a voice. I probably wouldn’t be sitting here today had it not been for sex work. It has been a really good thing in my life and it has really helped me. All of the accolades and awards that I have won for who I am today are a direct consequence of my having done sex work."

Now, the point is, how many average, ordinary prostitutes will be getting all these benefits from prostitution? None.

We cannot legislate for a pampered minority, but for the majority.

We cannot base our laws on prostitution on the experience of one transgender male who prostituted himself to other males to finance a degree. He is not representative of the great mass. Not by a long chalk!

worth repeating:

Funny old world it is, when misgendering someone attracts greater censure than freely sharing the information that you might have raped a vulnerable or coerced woman for money.

Paris Lees is a fucking deluded idiot. I can say that, can't I?

So Paris Lees only got her career "success" because she got paid for having sex.

Strange that so many of us managed to have successful careers without resorting to being orifices for the most pathetic sort of men.

Maybe that says more about Paris Lees' natural ability than it does about sex work. If Paris Lees had to be a sex worker in order to make herself successful in another career perhaps Paris Lees is not so talented as she likes to think.

Grimble, normally I agree with a lot of what you post, and I should also say that what I've seen of Paris Lees' public pronouncements makes me think I disagree with most of what she says. However, I think you've overstepped the mark with that comment. It is damn hard for anyone to fund themselves through university these days doing anything. I may think that Paris' choice of method is detrimental to women as a whole when I look at the bigger picture, but I am very uncomfortable with criticising individual's actions. I don't think anyone on here would criticise someone who was in such desperate financial straits that they had to turn to prostitution in order to eat, similarly I would not cast opprobrium on anyone who saw prostitution as the one option in their life that was well enough paid to get them out of poverty (which I would guess as an ex con with a sentence for robbery was what Lees was looking at) by gaining them access to education. I save my opprobrium for the punters and pimps.

Just to be clear - I disagree utterly with Lees defending prostitution as a valid career choice like any other and ignoring its unquestionably gendered nature - that is a totally shit call on her part. The fact that there are some happy hookers out there does not change the fact that it is an activity which in the vast majority of cases oppresses women, and the existence of which contributes to a culture in which women are seen as sex objects who are less than human. But I am not going to cast aspersions on her personal choice to be a prostitute at that point in her life.

It bothers me greatly that a man who believes he is a woman is accorded so much more credibility than actual women on an issue where opinion is sharply divided by the sex of the opinion-havers.

Feels like a deck stacked against women from the start on a subject where an estimated 42 million women and girls are subjected to rape slavery for the bloody "entertainment" of hundreds of millions of men and boys.

I expect Paris did this submission to the Select Committee for a nice extra little bit of validation. That's all that really counts, after all, eh?