Where do you stand on banning the sex trade?

[PinkyofPie]

I'm a radfem but I have done very little research into the banning of the sex trade and sex workers, but I know it's a bit of a hot topic at the moment, and the likes of the (vile) Paris Lees is a champion for sex workers.

I can't imagine why anyone would think protecting legal rights for the sex trade would be good for women. Can anyone enlighten me to their views?

OP Do you think "banning" or making prostitution fully illegal will reduce levels of prostitution?

Where prostitution is fully illegal like Russia, Eastern Europe, Africa, there is still a "thriving" sex trade industry. In Russia you get a lot of bribery and corruption between police and gangsters who run business, WGs are fined when they are caught but are often given cash to bribe police with so they can get back to work.

The sex work situation in Africa is too horrible, and the fact prostitutes are criminals there makes their lives far worse.

It's good to see an increasing acceptance of the Nordic Model across Europe. It doesn't work to reduce levels of sex trade like you might think, but basically prostitutes themselves under this model are far safer than under fully legal or fully illegal models. It forces the punters to think about and own their actions, and take responsibility.

The most notable successes of the Nordic Model are in reducing street prostitution which is the lowest paid and most dangerous work. I'd also take trafficking figures with a pinch of salt, though. Traffickers go where they have connections, which are sometimes fairly "high up".

Fundamentally, I don't have a problem with a woman (or a man) privately exchanging sex for money, if they are genuinely willing. None of my business, as it were. Although, on a personal level, it assaults my feminist principles that people would be having, basically, unwanted sex, because they need the money.

However, I do have a problem with the gendered nature of prostitution - and it's impact on sexual equality of women.

I also have a problem with the legality and social acceptability of men (and it is mainly men) buying people (mainly women, and worse, girls) for sex. It makes women a valuable commodity. And then you get into the trafficking. That's my problem.

Anything that 'can' be sold, will be. Women are bought and sold in organised sex-trafficking criminal gangs, and this hugely escalates in places of lawlessness (eg, the former Yugoslavia, just after the war) or where it is legalised (eg Germany) where it can be passed off as voluntary.

Watch the Whistleblower on Netflix.

My best friend works as an escort. I dont think its healthy and yes i do believe it stems from issues she has and makes them worse. The thing is though it could be made so much safer for her if it were completely legal. I understand the argument made that the danger is from the men who think that its ok to buy sex but i think that weather it is legal or not prostitution will still be taking place for the foreseeable future and if it is legal then much more can be done to protect the women doing it right now. I also think if it were legal it would be easier to talk about, i know it would be for her and actually i think that would be really helpful to her. She does work which is harming her but then has the added psychological pressure of it being illegal and everyone judging her. I think she gets trapped in a loop of low self esteem where she cant talk about it and cant feel good about herself apart from when shes doing it or with other people who are doing it. Its incredibly isolating and alienating.

It wouldn't be just condoms, Kara. It should be gloves, plastic aprons etc.

Equality laws - no discrimination on age, pregnancy, skin colour or disability. Will that work?

Benefits - if a woman turns down a sex work job, should her benefits be suspended? If it's just work.

I am not at all well read in the issues surrounding prostitution so am perfectly happy to be told i am being naive. but i think decriminalising prostitution is the only way to even start to make it safer for the women who are involved. They need to be able to seek help, report abusers, report illegal trafficking, have legal recourse when they are treated unfairly. I dont think it should be legal to be a pimp or run a brothel. I think sex workers should be self employed to protect against exploitation. I think they should have a license to trade. I also think that anyone who buys sex should be legally obliged to have a license to do so. Which would involve applying to the police for a complete criminal history check, undergoing 3 monthly sexual health testing and obliged to present their license and ID at every occasion they wish to purchase sex to have their license number recorded along with whatever other details the sex worker wishes to record regarding their purchase. Anyone with a police recorded history of ANY violence would be banned from ever qualifying for a license to purchase sex or to sell sex. Anyone selling sex to someone who didnt have a license would be breaking the law. Anyone purchasing sex without having a license would be breaking the law. Both would lose their licenses.

Again, i'm probably being very naive.

MrsSpecter

The Nordic/Swedish model criminalises the punter, not the prostitute, which is why I like it. Totally agree sex workers should be able to get support re trafficking etc.

Your system of licensing punters sounds like a good way to reduce the amount of bought consent and the amount of violence attached to it as each punter would be registered. Interesting.

houseeveryweekend I don't know which country you live in but generally prostitution is not illegal. The illegality applies to brothels and pimping.

What do you mean by "it would be so much safer for her if it were completely legal" What your friend is doing is already completely legal.

MrsSpecter same question to you. I don't see anything in your post other than the licence to buy and sell which is in any way different from the current legal position in the whole of Europe (excluding Norway, Sweden, Iceland, France and Northern Ireland where buying sex is ilegal)

Is it? She doesnt pay any tax and cant explicitly say what she does. Its all implied on the website etc i always thought this was because some element of it was illegal?

Is it because its essentially a brothel? They own rooms like hotel rooms and have a manager, photographer and security staff. Is it that she is not doing it alone but as part of a 'company' who take some of what she earns that is illegal then? I assumed it would be much safer for her if it were all above board as she relies on the security provided which is not great. Were someone to attack her she wouldnt be able to phone the police and still keep her job. Shes never going to be able to complain of any unfair or abusive treatment from any one working with her either is she?

I don't see anything in your post other than the licence to buy and sell which is in any way different from the current legal position in the whole of Europe

So there is something in my post that is different than the current situation.

Also lass i am not good at interpreting tone in text but yours seems quite accusatory and i am not understanding why. Apologies if that is not what you are intending.

I lived in Lelystad for a couple of years and never had an issue with the dutch approach to prostitution.

Sex is a commodity. I think it should be regulated but I think it should be an open market

I'm not being accusatory and apologies if it sems that way but selling sex is not illegal so I don't really understand where the idea comes from that if prostitution were legal all the problems would be solved.

house If your friend is in the UK it sounds as if she is working in a brothel. The persons running it are criminals ; your friend is not.

Nothing I have read about the German legal brothels indicates to me your friend would be safer and less vulnerable in one of them nor that punters' attitudes would change.

I'm not torn at all: I want it to be illegal everywhere in the world. We cannot achieve equality until it is illegal to buy access to a woman's body.

clarrp you may not have a problem with the Dutch position but the Dutch government is considerably less sanguine that it was the correct approach.

Why even Amsterdam doesn’t want legal brothels
www.spectator.co.uk/2013/02/flesh-for-sale/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands?wprov=sfla1

I sincerely believe the Nordic model is the way forward.

Criminalise buying sex, pimps, running brothels. Decriminalise prostitution and provide meaningful exit support.

The thing is i would be a hundred times more frightened for her if she were working alone. Surely brothels being illegal stops women from getting protection from working in groups and having security and a place to go that they know is relatively safe and clean. Hotels, houses and the street are not safe places for having sex with strangers.

http://gu.com/p/4hafa?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Julie Bindel writing in the Guardian.

Also when i think about it it doesnt seem very empowering or respectful to tell women what they can do with their bodies. Surely that should be up to each individual woman if she wishes to charge money for having sex with someone. Its not something i would generally do but who am i to tell anyone else not to do it. Its up to them how they view themselves and how they view sex isnt it? Doesnt this hark back to the days when a womans sex was her highest gift and stuff like that? Men selling their bodies to women is seen as sort of funny generally i know thats because of the historical power dynamic and the fact that in general men are more able to defend themselves whereas many female prostitutes face violence etc but isnt there something of the feeling that for men sex is just something they will do but a woman ought to be more precious about it? Now these are just things i think about it, im open to being corrected. Like i said i have seen it negatively effect my friend but theres a whole other load of issues at play there. I often think what would really help her would be being able to respect herself but im not sure that involves being told that what she is doing is wrong or demeaning. I think she doesnt respect herself and so has gone down this path rather than that this path has caused her not to respect herself, in a way people around her are far more disrespectful to her when they have found out than the men who pay to sleep with her. I think men who havent paid to sleep with her sometimes treat her much worse as well.

Brothels aren't safe places for women either. There really is nothing safe about being bought by the minute/hour to be what is effectively raped. Not to mention how many men thing they are also purchasing the right to physically assault and harm prostitutes as part of the "bargain".

Can you buy consent?

If you can buy consent, how does that affect us as a society overall? How does that affect prostitutes particularly. Or women who aren't prostitutes but who men feel they can somehow purchase consent from?

Do you thing prostitutes, in the main, are having sex because they actually want to. Or because they need the money.

Here former prostitute Rachel Moran writes for the Independent. I believe her.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/should-prostitution-be-legal-lets-try-listening-to-the-real-experts-8829716.html

Better link if on phones:
www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/should-prostitution-be-legal-lets-try-listening-to-the-real-experts-8829716.html

If we are to say you can buy consent (and to be clear I don't agree you can), what is the valid form of payment?
Money?
Dinner?
A drink?

Where is the line drawn and who draws it?

I dont think all prostitutes feel the same way, surely they are all different women doing it for different reasons?
The brothel is the safest place for a prostitute to currently work in my view but no they are far from completely safe. I think they should be legalised and then they could be alot safer.
I understand the argument about the attitudes of men who pay for sex being a problem that wont be combated by making brothels legal but i actually think that attitude is part of a wider attitude that isnt really about money at all. There are lots of entitled men out there who will take what they want using pretty low means, coercion, plying someone with drugs or drink etc etc they dont want any emotional connection... in some ways i think at least when they are paying they are making it very clear what its about. Actually i dont think its disrespectful to just want sex but no emotional connection from someone. What i do think is disrespectful is lying and manipulating and 'playing' women to get sex that really they wouldnt have given if they had known it was just about that. If it were the case that prostitutes were selling sex because they wanted the money and they like having sex then i dont actually see any shame in that at all. Dont both people in that equation know exactly what is taking place? The problems exist around women being forced into prostitution through drug addiction, being in the country illegally and things like that.
Prostitution in itself is not demeaning. Why shouldnt sex be something you get paid for? We are objectified every second of every day in what i think are far more demeaning ways and everyone accepts it, women looking sexy to sell everything from cars to shampoo and yet when it comes to actually selling sex theres an uproar! Like no woman should profit from the objectification of her body, thats only what bad women do. Good women love you and they arent just interested in sex or money.

We are objectified every second of every day in what i think are far more demeaning ways and everyone accepts it, women looking sexy to sell everything from cars to shampoo and yet when it comes to actually selling sex theres an uproar!

Everyone does not just accept it.
Feminists do not just accept it. Many men do not just accept it.

selling sex is not the uproar or at least should not be. An entitlement/legal rubber stamp to BUY sex is the problem.

AFAICS house you are the only one on this thread who has referred to prostitutes as "bad women".