Where do you stand on banning the sex trade?

[PinkyofPie]

I'm a radfem but I have done very little research into the banning of the sex trade and sex workers, but I know it's a bit of a hot topic at the moment, and the likes of the (vile) Paris Lees is a champion for sex workers.

I can't imagine why anyone would think protecting legal rights for the sex trade would be good for women. Can anyone enlighten me to their views?

I think there needs to be widespread adoption of the Merseyside Model of policing, where any assault towards prostitutes is treated as a hate crime.

I would also generally support the Nordic model.

As for people saying but "what about people who choose to be sex worker?", people who want to sell escort services via the internet, will always exist, but that's not who the Nordic Model is set up to help anyway. Activism is about helping the people at the bottom of the pile.

While the sex trade is legalised in the Netherlands, it's decriminalised in Australia and New Zealand. Sex worker orgs claim that this is a huge success, but anyone with sense can realise that an industry operating behind closed doors will be run for the bosses' interests, not the workers.

It's peculiar how many pro sex trade people say "sex work is work", but then refuse to apply the same standards to sex work as we do to paid labour generally.

There are Australian "health and safety" guides for prostitutes. They make very grim reading.

"Also when i think about it it doesnt seem very empowering or respectful to tell women what they can do with their bodies. "

We legislate all the time what people can and can't do with their bodies for money. They can't sell blood, bone marrow, kidneys etc. They can't charge more than reasonable expenses for surrogacy. Is that disrespectful?

And as pointed out, most of us want buying, not selling, made illegal.

I'm pretty sure many sex workers do pay tax, housez

I'm very torn on this too.
If we could take the Swedish stance on it (ie illegal but Prostitutes aren't criminalised - punters and pimps are) then I think it could possibly make the workers safer than in countries where sex work is legalised, purely because the trade would be less likely to happen on the streets, however I don't think it's possible to ever stop it completely.
I remember watching a documentary a while back, and a British woman worked as a prostitute from her own flat, and through a web chat service. She employed a friend to act as a sort of security guard in her flat when she had clients over, and even showed the cameras her impressive tax return - I cannot see a problem with that. She is her own boss, doing what she does because she chooses to do it and makes an astonishing amount of money which is all above board. But obviously people like her a few and far between.

House

It's not the same people who think objectification of women is great but want prostitution or punters criminalised. People who support the Nordic Model or similar usually do so based on a fairly consistent belief that objectification and exploitation of women is wrong and should be tackled by society.

Why is buying consent seen as an undefeatable "norm" when so many such norms have fallen by the wayside? Divine right of kings. Slavery. The acceptability of drink driving. Marital rape. Smoking in pubs.

All of these things were our doing, and all of these things we have changed.

^Yes. Exactly.

Someone said that brothels are safer.

Are they talking about the caravans in restplatzen so that truck drivers can use women in them? Two women to a caravan, servicing all comers because they have to pay rent for the filthy bed they're working on?

Or perhaps the megabrothels, where they have to rent a room in a place where men pay a flat fee for whatever they want, like a smorgasbord. Where the women have to service at least 4 men in order to pay for the rent of the room they are using, a room that has a bed, a bowl of condoms and a panic button. No pillow on the bed, because men use them to suffocate the women for fun.

Or even one of the smaller brothels in towns, where again, the women are self-employed and have to pay to rent a room, but are competing with women from SE Asia and Eastern Europe who are made to provide more and more dangerous services to the men who use them for less money.

Saying that prostitution will always be with us is like saying that polio would always be with us, it's not, because a group of people worked very hard in order to stop that being the case.

I have no doubt that there are happy hookers, they are few and far between, but they do exist, but, as others have said, this isn't about them. They want it to be about them, but it isn't. This is about the woman who has no viable choices, there's no lovely post-doctoral role in whatever waiting for the vast majority of women when they stop being used in this way. With benefits sanctions on the increase, the numbers of women with no choice having to turn to being prostituted will increase. Women are being adversely affected by benefit cuts and sanctions...

If you want to know who has real vitriol for prostituted women, read what johns have to say on the Invisible Men Tumbler or Twitter. Don't eat right beforehand though if you don't have a rock solid stomach.

This article clearly spells out the impact of legalisation in Germany:

www.feministcurrent.com/2016/05/09/legalization-has-turned-germany-into-the-bordello-of-europe-we-should-be-ashamed/

I fail to see one single benefit of this model to any women at all. I can't see any single benefit to society as a whole either - quite the opposite.

Sex is the oldest profession, and to be blunt anyone can have sex and make money from it if they wanted to.
Sex sells, and as long as we have 'human nature' or our primal instincts from the caveman days, there will be sex workers.

I would bother to answer Noisy's point, but I see it's already been dealt with.

Unless of course you're suggesting that cavemen prostituted their women, in which case, can I have a go of your time machine?

FFS - stop calling paid sex a profession. It's all sorts of things, many unprintable, but profession it ain't.

FFS - stop calling paid sex a profession. It's all sorts of things, many unprintable, but profession it ain't.

This.

One could as well claim that selling organs is the oldest profession. Poor people sold their teeth so that rich people could use them. There's evidence for this going back a long time - I think Acient Egypt.
Is this considered a reason to keep the time-honoured tradition of selling organs alive?

Farming is probably the oldest profession.

Anyway it's utterly repulsive when applied to selling sex. I bet it started off as a euphemism.

Interesting. Kipling.

The euphemism is from Kipling?

Apparently Kipling used it in a short story and it was a tipping point. Before that it was used for all sorts of professions to suit the writer- after it generally meant prostitution.

Although according to Wiki, there were some entertaining crossovers.....
"There is some evidence that unworldly speakers (e.g. of the older generation) or unsophisticated audiences (e.g. in small towns or rural areas) were not at first aware of the phrase's newly acquired meaning. Thus for some time the following could be said in English newspaper reports without apparent embarrassment: “A certain proportion of the cadets were now leaving to enter the oldest profession in the world” (1895);.[19] “This gentleman's name often figures high in local prize lists, and he is considered an enthusiast in 'the oldest profession in the world'.” (1902)[20] “Mr Petrie heard the voice of God and observed the working of His hand in ways that are denied to most of us. His speech, and especially his prayers, exhibited a rare consciousness of the beauty of holiness, and were fragrant with phrases of singular charm. As you all know, Mr Petrie followed the oldest profession in the world.” (1915)[21]"

I would imagine that the oldest profession is probably something like flint knapping, or basket weaving or bone needle making.

Farming's a bit new fangled.

That is awesome and should be quoted on all "prostitution is natural, innit" threads!

Yes it is Kipling. It's also nonsense since presumanly the first punter must have caught , gathered or grown something to pay her with.

Even if that were not the case and sex was being bartered in exchange for say protection from a marauding tribe it's so completely and utterly irrelevant to any discussion now.

It's as trite and useless as Stephen Fry's "epigram"( not) about being offended.

It's interesting how those harking back to cave people times for a model around sex are typing on their tablets and enjoying their 80 year plus life expectancy without finding themselves internally inconsistent...

It's interesting how those harking back to cave people times for a model around sex are typing on their tablets and enjoying their 80 year plus life expectancy without finding themselves internally inconsistent...

At least being a punter seems to lower men's life expectancy. So perhaps there is some consistence.
(Monks live longer than the average male, and almost or about as long as the average woman. Why the MRAs who whine about men's lower life expectancy don't take that to the logical conclusion and become monks, I have no idea.)