female identifying only area at Glastonbury.

[Playduh]

http://i-d.vice.com/engb/article/glastonbury-announces-revolutionary-women-only-venue?utmm_source=idnewsletter

This just makes me so depressed. How have we got to a place where men are deemed so incapable of behaving themselves, women need to have a place to hide.

I'm teaching my son about respect and consent. Why am I bothering when society seems to think it's better to just fence off the women?

And (I accept I'm probably going up in flames for this one.) 'female identifying'? So it's not a safe place for women, it's a safe place for 'non-men' again isn't it?

Vestal, re my previous post. Is the Schroedinger's suicide bomber also a fair theory?

ve seen reports across all types of relationships women are more domestically violent

Have you looked at the criteria they used? There are many where they count "verbal abuse" as violence, and that can mean anything.

The number of cases where a man is murdered by his wife, versus the number of cases where a woman is murdered by her husband, and the number of cases where a lesbian is murdered by her girlfriend ... well. Compare those.

people overestimate the efforts men would go to to cause trouble
Every time I go out at night I get groped top and bottom. I realise hen nights may do the same but the intention is different.

We arent talking about regular guys here. Ive spent a huge amount of time in gay venues over the years and you get straight predators who target women in them. Just as you are starting to get straight cis men pretending identify as trans women to enter women only spaces.
A woman was raped by a straight man in my local gay club last year.
Its a sad state of affairs that women have to be separated. But there must be a need for it in the first place?

I would disagree that any like minded individuals should be able to separate themselves at a music festival. Do we really want "muslim only tents", "no gingers tents" etc etc surely the beauty of music is that it is inclusive and brings people together? Or am I an old hippy?

And as for a straight men only tent...what are they hiding from? Being groped and raped by women? It would be empty.

There are usually tents hosted by famous gay and lesbian club nights at festivals and they don't feel the need to restrict entry, as those that appreciate the vibe go there to enjoy it whatever their persuasion.

Sillage, go on then, tell me.

My point is not to dismiss Schroedinger's rapist. It is whether Schroedinger's suicide bomber is also a valid concern, and what actions would be reasonable to avoid him/her.

"Is the Schroedinger's suicide bomber also a fair theory?"

Are up to one third of all women killed or mained by terrorists on the regular?

Do men on the internet, on the street, in movie theaters, and in parking threaten to blow up women with the frequency they threaten to rape?

Are civilians hurt in terrorist bombings blamed for being hurt? Do judges excuse the harms with "terrorists will be terrorists" and other such sayings?

And what about that suicide-bomber porn industry raking in billions of dollars with "mock bombings" that men masturbate to in the millions?

I could keep going, but your hollow theorization that the rapes that happen to about 1/3 of all women is just like the political violence that terrorists groups commit has no legs. It is a think hypothesis that has to ignore a planet-sized mountain of evidence to be made.

The stats are very clear that the vast majority of domestic and sexual violence and abuse is committed by men against female partners. Men are far more likely to engage in coercive control, perpetrate multiple incidents of assault against a current or former partner and are the vast majority of perpetrators of fatal violence in a relationship.

Male victims of DSVA are more likely to be victims of a male perpetrator. Incidents of sexual violence perpetrated by a woman without a dominant male partner is minuscule.

The fact of the matter is that we have a culture of male violence committed by a not insignificant cohort of men. We also have a culture of men being excused for their violence and women being blamed for being victims. Amber Heard being a case in point.

If men don't want to be considered Schrodinger's rapist, they have the tools to challenge and dismantle the culture of male violence. Only a not very significant number of men are actually doing this. I have zero tolerance for men who whinge about hurt feelings when women making it clear they want a safe space whilst simultaneously laughing at rape jokes and dumping all the unpaid caring work on their partners. Either step up or shut up.

Do we really want "muslim only tents", "no gingers tents" etc etc surely the beauty of music is that it is inclusive and brings people together? Or am I an old hippy?

Well, let's phrase it like this: Do you really want to share a space with people who hate gingers? Do you really want to share a space with Muslims who don't want to talk to anyone of a different religion?
If people don't want to come together, forcing them to won't improve anything.

And as for a straight men only tent...what are they hiding from? Being groped and raped by women? It would be empty.

And therefore, why should there be one?
(I don't think the "no gingers" tent would be so popular, either.)

I could keep going, but your hollow theorization that the rapes that happen to about 1/3 of all women is just like the political violence that terrorists groups commit has no legs. It is a think hypothesis that has to ignore a planet-sized mountain of evidence to be made.

Exactly. I was ignoring Grimarse because I'm 99% sure he's intentionally wasting our time by asking ignorant questions. (Is there a word for this? It's like the other side of the mansplaining coin.)

sillage BOOM

vestle i was responding to the post above mine that said any group should be able to
separate inc straight men. The post has dissapeared.
No you can't force people together but they should stay in their own communities/at home and not bring their separatism and hate to a music festival.
Whereas I see women wanting sanctuary from being touched up as they walk through a crowd at Glasto as something totally understandable, although regretable.

Just to reiterate, I see no problem with this proposal at Glastonbury. If it is what attendees want, more power to them.

But this Schroedinger's principal (which is fine by me, I understand the concern) - it seems to make some people uncomfortable when it is applied to race and religion, and yet it's fine to apply it to gender. Am I unreasonable to be nervous if I see a brown-skinned person on a plane or a tube train? I don't know them. Like the M&M's, the figures are irrelevant. These events happen, and I don't know if that man or woman sat next to me will be the next martyr. If it's one in a thousand Muslims who think this way, or one in ten thousand, or one in ten - frankly, I don't care because I cannot see their intention.

I can't believe what I've read... If all men are schroedingers rapist that can be applied to women as ive seen reports across all types of relationships women are more domestically violent. And I would argue being a woman is not like being black. Black people are a minority men and women are split pretty evenly.

Women are not equally represented in music and most other public arenas, despite being 50% of the population. That's exactly why glasto proposed the women's space.

And women are not more domestically violent. That's utter bollocks. Show me a source that says that.

"Like the M&M's, the figures are irrelevant.:

The hell they're irrelevant. They're everything.

This is what your theorizing sounds like to me:

Men hurt women. Snakes hurt women. Therefore, is it not logically rational for women to be more afraid of men than they are of snakes.

It's dumb.

grim seriously, the figures are irrelevant?
Most women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. For the majority that will be "just" a grope but for a significant minority it will involve rape.
How many people do you know who have been killed by terrorists? Probably none, maybe 1, if you are unlucky.
How many women do you know who have been sexually assaulted or raped? Maybe ask them. I'm willing to bet most of them.
Us women are just paranoid though

The laziest anaology of all time- using race as a comparison to gender/sex.
Guess what!? Some women are also white mixed with asian and some men are also black and arab.
Enough with the derailment using brown terroists. It doesnt work.

Also, if you are hurt by a terrorist, no one will blame you for being hurt. They will blame the terrorist for your injuries. As all too many women know, this is not always the case with rape.

Maybe ask them. I'm willing to bet most of them.

Yeah, but do you really think they'll want to talk to him about this?
If a man proudly tells me that no woman he knows was ever sexually assaulted, I can only assume that they know his attitude and are therefore less inclined to tell him than tell anyone at all.

No you can't force people together but they should stay in their own communities/at home and not bring their separatism and hate to a music festival.

Fair enough - don't think religious extremists would want to go to a heathen music festival, anyway.

Yeah I can't decide about grim. Sometimes he seems like a decent person, so I assume his wife/sisters/friends might tell him. Sometimes he seems like a goady MRA fucker so I assume doesn't speak to any females irl

Not an MRA. I assume an MRA would say that Schroedinger's Rapist is wrong because blah blah blah. I am not - I get it. Like I get about women-only spaces, if people want them. I might not like being lumped in with the assaulters and rapists, but I understand why some women think that way and me feeling a bit miffed is really no big deal.

I have a wife and daughter. They are mixed race, and these issues affect us as a family - public perception, attitudes, other people's reactions and fears. The attitude here seems to be that this is a matter of statistics. There are enough predatory men to put every single woman in potential danger. Whereas, there just aren't enough terrorists to go round to make it worth worrying about - which is bollocks. How many terrorist attempts have their been recently, in the UK, Europe and further afield? You are discussing your own fears - which is reasonable - and dismissing those held by other people. And you dismiss them because they make you uncomfortable.

Also, Sometimes he seems like a decent person....Sometimes he seems like a goady MRA fucker. This is really interesting. In your view, is there no middle ground - someone who agrees with some of your views and not others? It reminds me a bit of George Bush - 'either you are with us, or you are against us.' Is there no room for discussion in your politics?

I'm not dismissing anyone's fears.
The fact remains though that women are hugely at risk of sexual violence from men but no one in the UK is hugely at risk of terrorism.
Fear of Muslim terrorists is like fear of flying. Understandable, but disproportionate to the actual risk. Whereas fear of men isn't disproportionate to the risks given how many women are assaulted by men.
The conflation of fear of being assaulted by a man with other things that are accepted as bigotry (such as fear of Muslims, fear of gay people) is an MRA style derailment tactic.

Also, Sometimes he seems like a decent person....Sometimes he seems like a goady MRA fucker. This is really interesting. In your view, is there no middle ground - someone who agrees with some of your views and not others? It reminds me a bit of George Bush - 'either you are with us, or you are against us.' Is there no room for discussion in your politics?

I was responding to the polarity in POVs put forward by you on various threads on FWR. Sometimes you are very sympathetic to women. Sometimes I find you sexist and goady. Tonight its the latter.

5 people have been killed by terrorists in the UK in the last ten years.
That's about the same as the number of women killed per month by a man.

Right. So it is stats. Schroedinger is dead then (not dead and alive). The fact that men's predatory disposition is unknowable should never have been raised, because you cannot use the same analogy for any characteristic other than gender.

Oh, and 56 died and over 700 were seriously injured during 7/7. And at least fifty similar (or larger) plots have been foiled since then;

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33417300

And then there are the plots that maybe the authorities never knew about - failed, postponed, chickened out. So five is a bit misleading when we are talking about threat.

Oh, and in the USA, 78 separate plots uncovered by the FBI since 9/11;

www.fbi.gov/about-us/ten-years-after-the-fbi-since-9-11/investigative-accomplishments/terrorism-investigations

And none of this is being quoted to belittle or minimise both the perceived and actual threat to women in their daily lives. But I think you are underplaying this, and I don't know if it is deliberate or just a lack of awareness.