Trans people to be JAILED in Alabama town if they go to "the wrong toilet"

[katmanwho]

Unbelievable. There has been a lot of hate recently in North Carolina with the bathroom bill. But this has got a lot worse. [ www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2016/04/oxford_passes_law_aimed_at_tar.html]

So a transwoman will have to go the male bathroom. A transman in the female one. There's been cases of butch women being hassled already in female toilets.

Oh - and if you're in North Carolina and witness someone who you think is in the wrong bathroom, you can call the hotline.

Meanwhile, a convicted sex offender (who is also Ex Republican House Speaker) is allowed to go the male bathroom with boys.

The only good thing about this bill is that it's made people react to the discrimination and to show that many people think this is discrimination. Just like in the 60s. Apparently trans people are sexual deviants.

This is the real effect of hate.

I'm still a bit stunned about Danielle can say that anyone who doesn't accept a new definition of the word "female" is bigoted and anti-feminist. That's fascism, surely?

I'm still a bit stunned about Danielle can say that anyone who doesn't accept a new definition of the word "female" is bigoted and anti-feminist. That's fascism, surely?

I've been 'told' on MN that the term 'woman' has been redefined to include people with penises, and by not recognising that new definition I am not allowing for the linguistic changes that occur naturally in society.

(It was mansplained to me, of course )

Cakey, a transwoman is someone born male who identifies themselves as female. They may or may not take hormones, wear female clothes or have sex reassignment surgery. 'Cis' is a term currently fashionable to describe someone who identifies as the same biological sex they were born as. So a woman who was born a woman would be called a 'cis woman'. However some women find the term 'cis' offensive and it is used offensively at times by some trans people. (Die cis scum I think is a well know FB/Twitter one).

The new legislation being considered would make it fast and very easy for someone to legally change their gender with no requirement at all that they go through any gender transformation. They only have to say they identify as the other biological sex. The discussion above is around whether someone with a beard and penis saying 'I feel like a woman inside, therefore my beard and penis are a woman's beard and penis, I have equal right to all women's spaces because I'm as much a woman as any other, and if you are uncomfortable with this you have a problem with narrow, bigoted views of what makes a woman' is something that should be unquestioningly embraced.

rumbling, your summary is absolutely brilliant

ruthy where does a mansplainer get his water from? A well, actually

cakey a transwoman is a man who identifies as a woman. It used to mean a transsexual, and the man would undergo hormone treatment, counselling and surgery to assist in his body dysphoria and "living as a woman". After 2 years, he could apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate(GRC) and legally change sex; but there would still be some places (like rape crisis centres) which could be woman only. Now parts of society (particularly universities and "progressive" institutions) don't require any of that, and groups and shut down if they don't include Transwomen; however they present. Various shops and gyms have already gone with self identification being the only requirement and not a full GRC. The law is likely to change shortly so that self identification will be all you need to obtain a GRC and there will be no exemptions for space for any woman only space.

So any man can access previously sex segregated space and complaining about that will be a hate crime. The men in the photos I've just posted could be next to you in a hospital ward and there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it.

"Cis" means that your biological sex and gender identity match. It is often used in a derogatory way to talk about "cis" privilege - because being born a woman is so much better than being a man. It also assumes you have a gender identity. I don't.

I've been 'told' on MN that the term 'woman' has been redefined to include people with penises, and by not recognising that new definition I am not allowing for the linguistic changes that occur naturally in society.

As someone who actually studied English at university, I feel qualified to say that linguistic changes that occur naturally in society don't have to be forced down people't throats because ... they occur naturally. If something occurs naturally, people don't have to enforce it.

You refusing to recognize that nonsense term is linguistic change naturally failing to occur. Very natural, too.

(It is a lot like those people claiming that gender roles are natural because evolution while at the same time refusing to acknowledge that evolution means we can change gender roles ...)

where does a mansplainer get his water from? A well, actually

As someone who actually studied English at university, I feel qualified to say that linguistic changes that occur naturally in society don't have to be forced down people't throats because ... they occur naturally. If something occurs naturally, people don't have to enforce it.

That was exactly my response too. It seems that patriarchal privilege dies hard, which I guess is very frustrating when the 'This is how it is going to be from now on because I said so, gedddit?' argument meets with bigotry rationality.

And you don't have to think very deeply to see where all this could end.

A 16-year-old girl asks for a female chaperone for her smear test and someone like Danielle turns up. Bearded, male bodied, penis- owning. But because they say they are a woman, the 16-year-old will not be allowed to ask for an actual woman instead.

A 16-year-old girl asks for a female chaperone for her smear test and someone like Danielle turns up. Bearded, male bodied, penis- owning. But because they say they are a woman, the 16-year-old will not be allowed to ask for an actual woman instead.

Actually, I have read a very similar story somewhere on the internet, it was not a smear test thing but some other very intimate thing, and the woman didn't dare request an actual woman. She might still have had the legal leverage to do so, but was too intimidated.

This is already happening.

And to be honest, I wouldn't be comfortable with a skirt-wearing, cleanly-shaved penis-owner in such a situation, either - because a male who knowingly puts himself in a space where he knows women want to have privacy, has obviously no respect for boundaries.

Exactly vestal like the transwoman who sued the rape crisis centre for not letting him volunteer. Huge legal battle that went on for years, nearly closed the centre. All to validate his delusion that he was a woman. What an absolute unspeakable dick.

A 16-year-old girl asks for a female chaperone for her smear test and someone like Danielle turns up. Bearded, male bodied, penis- owning. But because they say they are a woman, the 16-year-old will not be allowed to ask for an actual woman instead.

This is what really bothers me. Women either have to accept they can no longer have any feelings or barriers over male bodied people in every part of their lives no matter how private, to accept that the time of it being ok to feel discomfort and have choice about this is over because a minority group's right to feel fully validated is more important - or that there will be facilities they have to quietly give up accessing. Many women offered a male bodied chaperone would not go ahead with the smear test. Or discharge themselves from the ward. Or leave the rape crisis support group. Or avoid public toilets.

I suppose the thought at the moment is that while older women will have to be collateral damage to this, that the younger generation will grow up seeing all this as normal and the issue will die out. I was going to say sex segregation will disappear as a thing of the past, but at the moment it isn't a case of unisex loos being wanted, it's a case of wanting segregated loos while validating Yes You Are A Real Woman.

I wonder if in a few years we will have issues arising about the safety of 'cis' women following a rise in assaults, or issues around 'cis' women not accessing resources. Although much of that will not be something that can be discussed as it breaches right think.

It's not really about bathrooms, it's about keeping women safe and male privilege.

Robert Whitehead
Dressed as woman to photograph women in ladies’ restrooms
Took “multiple photos of different women in bathroom stalls around the city with their pants down.”

genericJason Pomare
Dressed as woman to videotape women in ladies’ restrooms
“Wearing a wig and women’s clothing, including a bra… Pomare was formally charged with six counts of unlawful use of a concealed camera for purposes of sexual gratification.”

genericChristopher Todd Gard
Assaulted, choked 8-year-old in restroom while armed, wearing only women’s underwear
Arrested on complaints of aggravated assault and battery, assault with a dangerous weapon, possession of a firearm during a felony, kidnapping and indecent exposure.

genericRichard Rodriguez
Dressed as woman to photograph women in ladies’ restroom
Placed mirrors and cameras under restroom stalls to peep on and photograph women and children

genericPatrick Hagan
Transwoman who beat a woman for questioning his presence in ladies’ room
Truck driver and martial arts expert charged with beating a woman, who lost five teeth in the assault and may face $60,000 in medical bills

genericGregory Philip Schwartz
Dressed as woman to assault woman in bathroom
Wearing a stolen dress, climbed under stall to “assault with attempt to commit rape” against a woman as well as “assault with a deadly weapon” against a security guard who intercepted

genericEichi Yamamoto
Dressed as a woman so he could watch women in bath houses
“I wanted to see women naked,” he was quoted. “Dressing up as a woman was a step to do that.” Charged with 17 counts of illegally entering buildings and voyeurism.

genericRodney Kenneth Petersen
Dressed as woman to sneak into female dorms and photograph women
Dressed as a woman to sneak into female dorms and take photos of women with cellphone hidden in his purse; slammed his car into a security guard when confronted

generic
Taylor J Beuhler
Dressed as woman for voyeurism, fetishism in ladies’ rooms
Suspect in multiple voyeurism incidents, admitted to taking a shower in a girls’ locker room “for sexual gratification”

genericMario Morales-Herrera
Dressed as woman to videotape women and children in ladies’ restroom
Recorded several women and children using the facilities. “I have watched thousands of videos like that,” said Morales, whom police described as “predatory” and “a danger to the safety of the community.”

fialkowski3Joseph (Julianna) Tourmaline Fialkowski
Transwoman who abducted a child while youth counselor for at-risk youth
Charged with felony rape involving a juvenile, abduction with the intent to defile, producing child pornography, strangulation

generic
Takahiro Murakami
Assaults women while crossdressed
Admitted to fondling and sexually assaulting women, crossdressing first in order to “alleviate a woman’s wariness.”

genericDavid (Reena) Andrews
Transwoman who shot Transman, then self
Investigators “still trying to piece together what happened leading up to the fatal confrontation”

genericStuart (Katelyn) Findlay
Transgender sex offender sentenced to women’s prison
Called “high risk” with 21 convictions including sex offenses, robbery, racially aggravated harrassment, threatening and abusive beahavior

genericPaul Ray (Paula) Witherspoon
Transgender sex offender scared woman in hospital restroom
Sexual assault and sexual indecency with two children, violated parole, charged with disorderly conduct for using women’s restroom in a hospital

genericRenell Thorpe
Fetishist restrained and raped woman, put on her clothes, took souvenir clothing
Held on a number of felony charges

genericClare Lawson
Transsexual who committed sadistic rape with crossdresser Peter Steel
Convicted of rape, inflicting grevous bodily harm, burglary and more.

genericPeter Steel
Crossdresser who committed sadistic rape with transsexual Clare Lawson
Convicted of rape, inflicting grevous bodily harm, burglary and more. Considered a “dangerous sex offender.”

genericStephen Owen
Sexually abused a six-year old while dressed in wife’s clothes
Also found guilty of indecent assault, indecency with a child, attempted rape against two other girls.

genericDavid John Harris
Fetishist crossdresser who attacks women while dressed
Multiple attacks upon women including an 18 year old and a 19 year old. Banned from crossdressing at night as part of a sexual offence protection order.

genericPaul Williams
Crossdresser who steals women’s underwear, exposes self
Also convicted of indecent assault; plotted to sexually assault a woman from his jail cell, collecting 1500 pages of “graphic and disturbing” letters and photographs of her.

genericCarl Dahn
Crossdresser charged with child pornography, arranged to meet 14-year-old girl
Dahn “made arrangements to meet who he thought was a 14-year-old girl… Dahn was dressed in a mini skirt, cowboy boots and women’s under clothing at the time.”

Hang on ... what legislation is being changed soon?

Exactly, rumbling. And women who end up in prison for some reason or the other (could be something harmless like smoking weed) don't even have that choice anymore.

Nobody is going to convince me that beardy Daniel/Danielle is more vulnerable than my daughters.

TW are shouting the loudest and stamping their feet and people are bending over fucking backwards to get them what they want. God forbid you appear bigoted or hurt their little feelings.
But in doing so its a big fuck you to women and girls. We're just background noise.

Please be patient with me.

DH and I are arguing this.

Why would someone like 'Danielle' describe them self as a woman if they don't take drugs to change, won't wear female clothes, don't undergo surgery, and keep the beard? What is the 'woman' part?

cakey equalities minister Maria Miller has been consulting on whether to make self identification the only requirement for a GRC. She consulted lots of trans groups and concluded it was a brilliant idea. She couldn't think of any areas which should be woman only.

Those of us who wrote to express concerns were dismissed as "purported feminists" and "extraordinary bigots".

All the press coverage of her recommendations was entirely positive about what a great thing this would be.

It is extremely likely to change in the next 6 months. If you think this is problematic you could try writing to your MP. Various of us have tried that with mixed results - my MP just forwarded it to Maria Miller's office. Others have had more thoughtful responses.

cakey "woman" just becomes a meaningless word to describe "anyone wh identifies as a woman"

Who knows what the motivation is - for some it's cross dressing, for some I think they are so binary in their thinking that if they don't completely identify with hyper masculine stereotypes they conclude they are women. Some just seem to be misogynists and this identification allows them to abuse women under the guise of being progressive, but don't have to give up any male privilege. Some enjoy bullying, coercing and pressurising lesbians into having sex with their "lady dicks" otherwise they.re transphobic.

cakey, from Pink News: "Many campaigners believe that the legislation surrounding transgender and other gender related issues need to be reformed. Parliament is currently holding an inquiry into the issue ... In the upcoming Scottish election, most political parties have said they will bring forward new gender identity laws."

The International Olympic Comittee has already amended its rules regarding pre-operative transsexuals being able to compete as their preferred gender. Not much point in your average female athlete trying to out-run someone with a male physiology and all the advantages of speed, strength and stamina that naturally encompasses.

Why would someone like 'Danielle' describe them self as a woman if they don't take drugs to change, won't wear female clothes, don't undergo surgery, and keep the beard? What is the 'woman' part?

I honestly cannot begin to fathom what the answer to this is. A part of me feels that perhaps it's a testosterone-driven need to 'colonise' every area of society that you feel dares to 'exclude' you?

I'm obviously in a minority of one here. :)

How do I feel about beards in loos? Umm - it's an odd question, tbh. The vast majority of people transitioning from make to female would not wear a beard. I guess I'd think it a little odd, but unless the beard-wearer made any gestures towards harming me or anyone else present, I'd let it go. I guess what you're really asking is how I'd cope with a blatantly male man usurping trans visibility to attack women. To which the answer is: I'd feel terrible, same as if a man broke into my home and attacked me, or hijacked my car and attacked me. Is it more likely that a man who is pre-disposed towards attacking women is more likely to do it under the guise of being a woman himself? I don't know. I do know that attacks on trans women in the USA have reached an all time high, though...

Anyway, one thought: it seems to me that what's going on here is what the patriarchy has always forced women to do - to compete for space. In this case it's very obvious - women are competing with trans women for physical, disputed spaces (loos, changing rooms). In one form or other this is what women have always had to do, due to the pressing influence of the patriarchy - we have had to compete for jobs because we are economically disadvtanged compared to men, we have competed for men as lovers and husbands (hence women's magazine industry), we have competed in a thousand insidious little ways for significance and superiority - because we are marginalised by the dominant male. And now we are competing for loos.

My take on this is that the tragedy of this competition is that born women and trans women are both at risk from the same group of people: violent men. Yet such is the hardwiring of our female competition the we are fighting each other while the dominant, violent man sits back and pretends to have nothing to do with it. To which I say: come on, we an do better than this. The truly feminist response, Ono, is not to defend my little bit of female turf but to reuse to compete over it with someone who is not my enemy but, in fact, my sister and one who needs my allegiance.

If you believe that trans women are men in a dress you'll think I'm a deluded fool - but if you believe, as I do, that trans women are women you'll see that this 'terf war' is exactly what patriarchy dictates, like a master puppeteer moving the rad fems and the trans activists up and down in a meaningless dance. Let's not do it. Well, I'm not going to, anyway.

And to repeat what I said easier: it's important to say that not all of MN is anti trans women in women's spaces. I am more than happy to go the loo in pairs with trans women. We can make up our own little dance on the way. :)

I've heard the situation be described as 'Orwellian' and I think that sums it up perfectly